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Married Folk ~ Please weigh in on this one - 12/21/2007 4:01:17 PM
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CoeurdeLeon
Posts: 7948
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There is an interesting discussion going on elsewhere* in the forums asking the question "How hard would you work at being what your spouse wanted to you to be?" and I'd really like to get married folk, who would actually be living out their opinions, to comment on the idea.
Premise #1 is that when a man marries a woman she looks like he wants her to look, however that happens to be. And so the question is how hard is she willing to work to stay looking like that? For instance, if she had long hair when he married her and that's what he likes should she never cut her hair short? And is it reasonable to ask such a thing? If she does cut her hair is that an indication that she doesn't "love him enough" and isn't willing to work hard enough to do what pleases him?
Premise #2 is that when a woman marries a man she wants to rework his clothes, hair, style, etc. Should he do whatever it takes to 'become' what she wants? Is it reasonable for her to ask it? If he likes his clothes/hair/style and doesn't want to change is he disregarding her desires?
All questions are about the external only.
Since y'all actually are married, I'd appreciate your thoughts. Blessings. 
*If you'd like to see the OP that prompted this it is HERE. It's a long thread but if you read one or two pages anywhere in it you'll get the gist of the discussion.
_____________________________
I want everyone here to know that I agree with the Lioness on every issue. Even when I disagree with her!
The Lioness Rules and Rocks! ~ Bluestone
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RE: Married Folk ~ Please weigh in on this one - 12/21/2007 4:55:05 PM
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Hazel2
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My husband married me for qualities other than my looks. In fact, he liked tall, big boned blonds (I was a short, petite brunette). I knew this and it made me feel awful ... I prayed that God would make me beautiful in John's eyes. Miraculously, that is just what he's done! John looks at me sometimes and says "I like your look!" or "You look cute!" with a tone of surprise. God actually changed the way he sees me! Amazing.
But back to your question ... when I buy something to wear or when I do my hair or makeup, it is always with John in mind. I do my best to look good for him and to act in a way that pleases him. It is a full time occupation for me ... but I succeed because he loves me!
I don't think it is unhealthy to strive to be the person your spouse needs. Actually, I think it is unhealthy to ignore what our spouses want and focus entirely on what we want ...
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Will you please remember my husband, John, in prayer He is not saved. Thank you and God bless you!
"When two people agree on everything, one of them is not necessary"
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RE: Married Folk ~ Please weigh in on this one - 12/21/2007 5:01:45 PM
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Auben
Posts: 1601
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From: Where pines tower and cranberries float
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Each of us has things we are willing to comprimise on. Each of us has things we are not willing to comprimise on. These things are incumbent on the individual, not the other person.
#1~While I think we should honor some of the things our mates find attractive, I don't think that this should mean we're frozen in time to that moment we married them. It's not always possible. Sometimes we need something new to keep us feeling fresh and interested in staying attractive.
Our mates should always do their best to love US, not the style of clothes we wear or our hairstyle or our weight. An individual is more than the things that make up their look.
#2~I would never marry someone with the intent to change them. My husband has always had a hairstyle I don't like. I've never made a move to change him (nor have I lied to him when he asked so he knows how I feel); consequently, he has occasionally made moves to change his style on his own. I love him...not his hair or his clothes.
Honestly, I think true love means having good communication (telling each other what you like, praising things you like about them, being honest about what you don't), never expecting someone to change for you, and trying to please your mate within reason. Within reason (for me) means that you attempt to change things you feel comfortable changing and make an attempt to be open and flexible.
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Tamara
~Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time~
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RE: Married Folk ~ Please weigh in on this one - 12/21/2007 5:13:34 PM
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blessednw
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this is a shallow way of thinking. It won't stand the test of time. There are many factors about surface appearances and youthful conclusions that do not last the testing of life's circumstances.
Once in a while you meet a person who truly does not seem to have changed outwardly in 30 years, but that is very RARE.
If you are marrying for appearances, you will be sorely tested in what it takes to stay married.
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This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh.....
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RE: Married Folk ~ Please weigh in on this one - 12/21/2007 5:25:01 PM
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WhiteWindWarrior
Posts: 124
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From: The cold North side of the Mountain
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quote:
Premise #1 is that when a man marries a woman she looks like he wants her to look, however that happens to be. And so the question is how hard is she willing to work to stay looking like that? For instance, if she had long hair when he married her and that's what he likes should she never cut her hair short? And is it reasonable to ask such a thing? If she does cut her hair is that an indication that she doesn't "love him enough" and isn't willing to work hard enough to do what pleases him?
After reading this the second time I concluded there's a lot of maybe and depends type answers to be applied here. But......here goes! After 48 yrs with my child bride I can safely say a woman's appearance changes with the seasons, her profession (if she works), physical changes (outside of her immediate control like grey hair), general health, her outlook on life, her mood and how she feels about herself, and above all her age and how she is accepted when aging, and finally the amount of love and acceptance she receives from her spouse. I personally would hestitate to give a yes or no answer to of any of the items you suggest. It's just not that simple. Gals are pretty complex, better to ask what her motives are? 
quote:
Premise #2 is that when a woman marries a man she wants to rework his clothes, hair, style, etc. Should he do whatever it takes to 'become' what she wants? Is it reasonable for her to ask it? If he likes his clothes/hair/style and doesn't want to change is he disregarding her desires?
Yeah, within reason and... it should be befitting the mans comfort zone about himself and how secure he is with his own image, in keeping with the type of work he does, where he works and above all how he might be received by his peers. Sometimes a womans touch can be very beneficial but it does require a little conversation before any attempts at some kind of "makeover" begins. 
_____________________________
"...I was in prison, and you came to Me." (Jesus) Mat 25:36b
"For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the Day of Christ Jesus." Phil 1:6
~ A fellow brother and servant in Christ Jesus ~
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RE: Married Folk ~ Please weigh in on this one - 12/21/2007 5:45:39 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
..."How hard would you work at being what your spouse wanted to you to be?"...
Premise #1 is that when a man marries a woman she looks like he wants her to look, however that happens to be. And so the question is how hard is she willing to work to stay looking like that? For instance, if she had long hair when he married her and that's what he likes should she never cut her hair short? And is it reasonable to ask such a thing? If she does cut her hair is that an indication that she doesn't "love him enough" and isn't willing to work hard enough to do what pleases him?
Well, the questions assume that we are in our prime upon marriage, but when I married the second time, I was certainly not in my prime.  Therefore, I will answer according to the way it was.
I had never in my life been pretty. When we married, I was very sick and had no idea what was wrong, because I could not afford to see a doctor. I was overweight. I'd had two children. I was 38. I was depressed because of childhood- and church-abuse. I hid nothing from him. I was overly bluntly honest about what he was getting, but I wanted so much for him to know what he was getting that I acted more impatient than I really felt and was more demanding than I truly was.
We married, I had major surgery, we went through some extremely tough years with our combined four teenaged children, finding out I have a terminal illness, my being kicked out of the church organization we had attended all our lives, and more. I have wrinkles. My hair has turned gray and white, and I am leaning toward never dying it. I rarely remember to put on even lipstick. We have been too busy just doing to worry about the small stuff.
Bottom line: The L-rd has blessed us, continues to bless us, and when we can do the extras, we do them.
quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
Premise #2 is that when a woman marries a man she wants to rework his clothes, hair, style, etc. Should he do whatever it takes to 'become' what she wants? Is it reasonable for her to ask it? If he likes his clothes/hair/style and doesn't want to change is he disregarding her desires?
Okay. An admission here. I did not marry to change him, but after we married, I took him to his closet and asked him, "Do you like these? Where did you buy these? How much to you generally pay for [shirts, ties, pants, jackets]? do you understand that you are worth more than these indicate? Do you understand that most of your clothes are two sizes too small?" That was all I intended to reshape, and he ate it up. We immediately threw out most of what he had and started over. It changed his whole attitude toward himself. He learned a state of being, a presence, that he did not have before.
When I was kicked out of the church, I begged him not to leave, not to allow what had happened to influence his relationship with the church but to do what he thought was right. He stayed for another 1.5 year, until he could take no more of them, then he also left -- but completely on his own. My influence was not there to cause him to come to my place of worship, because his days off do not include Saturdays, and I worship on the Sabbath. We continue, to this day, to worship separately.
I'll admit that some time later in our marriage, I made some more serious demands, but he knew why and knew that it was completely for his soul's good. But I did not marry him with the intention of changing him. This did not cross my mind, until I saw his closet.
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Married Folk ~ Please weigh in on this one - 12/21/2007 7:26:59 PM
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CoeurdeLeon
Posts: 7948
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quote:
Adoption on the other hand, at least in my mind, is a term of temporary guardianship and not permanent.
This is so the topic for another thread but I can't help but respond. I'm an adoptive mom. Adoption is permanent, there ain't no temporary about it. 
BTW, I sure appreciate the answers so far and look forward to seeing more. Thank you.
_____________________________
I want everyone here to know that I agree with the Lioness on every issue. Even when I disagree with her!
The Lioness Rules and Rocks! ~ Bluestone
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RE: Married Folk ~ Please weigh in on this one - 12/21/2007 7:37:35 PM
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WhiteWindWarrior
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Got it! Thanks..........
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"...I was in prison, and you came to Me." (Jesus) Mat 25:36b
"For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the Day of Christ Jesus." Phil 1:6
~ A fellow brother and servant in Christ Jesus ~
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RE: Married Folk ~ Please weigh in on this one - 12/21/2007 7:42:27 PM
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CoeurdeLeon
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This is one of the things I posted in the other thread. It brings up some questions that I think are an extension of the thinking involved in the original premises.
quote:
The topic of the thread has to do with "being what your spouse wants" after marriage. Would you do whatever it took to remain what you were on your wedding day so that your spouse never lost any of his attraction for you? By extension these questions have come up: Would you want to be married to someone who could lose his/her attraction for you? Is it reasonable to ask your spouse to continue to look the same from the day you marry onwards? Is there an underlying and implied "if you love me, you'll _____________" in the concept? (Because if you won't work to be what your spouse prefers...). And where does it become unreasonable? If your spouse shaves his beard, is he showing disdain for your preferences or did he just shave his beard?
It has been stated several times that if someone does not keep the same appearance after marriage that they were engaged in false advertising and were lying. Is that a fair statement?
The phrase "love them enough" has come up repeatedly... If I love him enough I'll......., If he loves me enough he'll....... Is love quantifiable? And is keeping our outward appearances a reasonable benchmark of how much we love our spouse?
Someone else brought up an excellent point about asking for something like this from your spouse, she said it's a vicious circle. "If I love him enough I'll do it but if he loved me enough he wouldn't ask for it." It becomes a "who loves who more" thing IMO. I can't see how that could be healthy for the marriage or either spouse.
_____________________________
I want everyone here to know that I agree with the Lioness on every issue. Even when I disagree with her!
The Lioness Rules and Rocks! ~ Bluestone
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RE: Married Folk ~ Please weigh in on this one - 12/21/2007 7:52:03 PM
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ta_mosquito
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I pretty much ditto Kath's post.
When Kevin and I married, my vows did NOT include "I promise to keep my appearance the same as it is today, unless you want me to change something" and Kevin's did not include "I promise to change my wardrobe, haircut, and other habits to accommodate your sensibilities."
Sorry - the accusation of false advertising is what is false, unless the person specifically says that they will endeavor to not change their appearance. 
And... advertising? Since when is a person something to buy? 
I have long hair. I like my hair long, as does Kevin. If for some reason I decided to cut it, he'd be disappointed, but he does realize it's my hair.
Kevin's wardrobe is fine. He is pretty conservative in his dress and is used to asking about if such-and-such matches since he is color blind.  Actually, he is used to someone else purchasing his clothes for him, too, so there's not much of an issue in our household.
I would love it if he decided to get braces, but it's his decision.
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Tricia
"There's a fine line between being open minded and being empty headed." ~Michael Coren
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RE: Married Folk ~ Please weigh in on this one - 12/21/2007 8:55:27 PM
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buckifn
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I believe it is my number one responsibility from God to please my wife, but if I am pleasing HIM, then I am sure the other will fall in place. As far as external, well external doesn't mean much...am I going to stop loving and cherishing my spouse if she is involved in an accident and loses both legs, or has cancer, and loses a breast? If I am then how shallow is our love?
Beauty goes far beyond the external and I love her with red hair, blonde hair, black, and any combination of the three. I mentioned in one thread about losing weight, but that is not just to please my partner, that is for my own healthy well being too, and I think we both do owe that to one another.
People mature a lot between 20 and 40 so yes, I would expect many changes in choice of wardrobe, hairstyles, color, and other things. So far it has all only gotten better.
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RE: Married Folk ~ Please weigh in on this one - 12/21/2007 9:18:44 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WhiteWindWarrior
I noticed your signature and was fascinated...
quote:
G-d has only one natural-born Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
...my preference though is the word grafted because...how shall I say this...it conveys a more permanent relationship. Adoption on the other hand, at least in my mind, is a term of temporary guardianship and not permanent. Sounds like semantics I know but if you have ever grafted a new shoot onto an old plant or tree you might better understand my drift. For biblical perspective (Romans 11:17,19,23-24)
Curious though, do you consider yourself as part of the root or a branch? 
Thank you, WhiteWindWarrior. 
Regarding the above statement, I completely understand where you are coming from, because I have never adopted. You understand grafting, while I don't understand that either! But my husband and his first wife adopted a beautiful little girl over 30 years ago. When his wife died, I became his wife, but I could never have filled that place of mother to her. I can only understand adoption from the point of view of how much I love my children and grandchildren.
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Married Folk ~ Please weigh in on this one - 12/21/2007 9:31:56 PM
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jaimestarcross
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These types of questions remind me of the woman who was wanting out
of her marriage because her spouse didn't want to exercise and get in better shape -
she'd gotten herself into great shape but he wasn't wanting to exercise or eat healthy.
... he was overweight and watched tv a lot.
If my husband wanted me to look a certain way - I would try to do that with in reason... I keep myself looking neat/clean and I don't run around in revealing clothes in public... this meets what he requires of me to do.
I want him to be like that to and he is.
If his appearance went shabby and he didn't bathe... that would create a problem
since I don't like being around smelly people... however I wouldn't divorce him because of it... I'd definitely would buy a lot of air fresheners and sleep in the spare bedroom!
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RE: Married Folk ~ Please weigh in on this one - 12/21/2007 9:38:39 PM
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42servehymn
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I had longish hair when I married my husband. About 6 months into marriage I cut my hair short. My husband always wanted me to grow it back out. I have had shorter and longer hair over the years. About 8 years or so ago I let my hair grow out. Hubby loves it and I like pleasing him. I have gotten interesting responses from women over the years who have suggested that I should wear my hair short. When I tell them that dh likes it that way they lecture me about letting a man control me etc. I truly don't see it that way. Pleasing him is important to me and my hair is not a major issue for me. He has never demanded that I do anything but he surely lets me know when he likes something I am doing and that is a reaction I want from him so it all works out.
My husband has good taste in clothing so I have never been unhappy with his choices. I also like the way he wears his hair. I have let him know that I prefer for him to keep his beard trimmed shorter but he doesn't seem to like it as much as I do. Again it is not a major issue for me. It is his face so he pretty much can do what he wants.
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A smile is a curve that can straighten out alot of things.
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RE: Married Folk ~ Please weigh in on this one - 12/22/2007 7:30:09 AM
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Qtman
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I posted this in the other thread but will repeat it here.
First off I don't see what external has to do with anything. That is not who we are. It is what is inside that counts. But to answer your question I have never expected nor have I asked my wife to change. After 33 years of marriage when I look at my wife I still see the same young lady I married.
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Everybody has Eternal Life. But only two Addresses to chose from.
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RE: Married Folk ~ Please weigh in on this one - 12/22/2007 8:05:34 AM
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draexo
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This is a joke, right?
Premise # 1 - You are pretty dumb if you think your wife is going to look the same year after year! Women like to change their styles. Sure some few stick to the same style, but most like to keep up to date. It is pretty sad, to me, that Christians are putting so much emphasis on the externals!
An example from our life: My wife does not wear make-up during the summer months. During the winter, she wears foundation. I dislike it. I live with it. Also, last summer she had her hair lightened and frosted. I liked it. She hated it. She had it turned back to her natural darker color. I live with it.
She knows that I did like her lighter hair color and she knows I do not like when she wears foundation, but it is not a major issue. It is not even a minor issue. Are people not communicating with their spouses anymore???
Premise # 2 - My wife married a geek when she married me. And she has cleaned me up quite a bit. I actually appreciate it, retrospectively. Why? Well, we live in the world. And the world makes judgements on people, whether we like it or not. If I am always dressed in a T-shirt and jeans, and look like I rolled right out of bed, how will people I interact with take that? People are more receptive to someone dressed a little better than t-shirts and jeans. My wife upgraded me to polo shirts and jeans. She bugged me for 7 years to get Lasik done. (I finally did). She has upgraded my wardrobe over time. If she had not, I would still be wearing t-shirts and jeans all the time. When a parent dropped their son or daughter off to my house to play with my son or daughter, they will not leave wondering if they just did the right thing. Now my wife would like it if I wore a suit to church. A SUIT! UNBELIEVABLE. I just will not do it. Suits are for funerals and weddings. I will once in a while wear a tie to church. But a SUIT? It just is not happening! She lives with it.
We've been married going on 8 years. I asked her to marry me April 15th, 1999.
_____________________________
The truth will set you free!
TRUTH
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RE: Married Folk ~ Please weigh in on this one - 12/22/2007 8:31:29 AM
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CoeurdeLeon
Posts: 7948
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quote:
This is a joke, right?
Not at all. There are some (unmarried at this time) folk who think this is perfectly reasonable. 
It has been said where this great debate goes on that...
1) The husband is the one who has to look at her, why shouldn't she look the way he prefers? And vice versa.
2) Biblically our bodies are not our own, they belong to our spouse therefore our spouse has the right to have their preferences honored.
To me, it's unbelievable that anyone would agree with this kind of thinking. The fact that it's heretofore unmarried people who are accepting this logic is very disturbing to me. How will they ever achieve healthy marriages if this makes sense to them?
_____________________________
I want everyone here to know that I agree with the Lioness on every issue. Even when I disagree with her!
The Lioness Rules and Rocks! ~ Bluestone
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RE: Married Folk ~ Please weigh in on this one - 12/22/2007 8:39:09 AM
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draexo
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From: Saratoga County, New York
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
1) The husband is the one who has to look at her, why shouldn't she look the way he prefers? And vice versa.
Sounds selfish to me.
quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
2) Biblically our bodies are not our own, they belong to our spouse therefore our spouse has the right to have their preferences honored.
And I am sure my wife would like it if I was a few inches taller and had a broader chest. Unless I become genetically manipulated that will not happen!
Where does the Bible say that we are to honor our spouses preferences?
_____________________________
The truth will set you free!
TRUTH
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RE: Married Folk ~ Please weigh in on this one - 12/22/2007 8:41:21 AM
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draexo
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From: Saratoga County, New York
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
It has been said where this great debate goes on that...
Where is this?
_____________________________
The truth will set you free!
TRUTH
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RE: Married Folk ~ Please weigh in on this one - 12/22/2007 9:25:36 AM
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Szaftoo
Posts: 893
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From: So. Calif.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
Premise #1 is that when a man marries a woman she looks like he wants her to look, however that happens to be. And so the question is how hard is she willing to work to stay looking like that? For instance, if she had long hair when he married her and that's what he likes should she never cut her hair short? And is it reasonable to ask such a thing? If she does cut her hair is that an indication that she doesn't "love him enough" and isn't willing to work hard enough to do what pleases him?
Marriage is not about looking the way your spouse wants you to look. That is controlling and superficial and not at all what marriage is. We are to take care of ourselves and our appearance and naturally our spouse appreciates that. We try and look nice for our spouse all the time and get input, but we don't ask permission to change something. My husband was attracted to my "long" hair but had no problem when I cut it.
Premise #2 is that when a woman marries a man she wants to rework his clothes, hair, style, etc. Should he do whatever it takes to 'become' what she wants? Is it reasonable for her to ask it? If he likes his clothes/hair/style and doesn't want to change is he disregarding her desires?
It is not my business to "rework" my husband or make him "become what I want". He is a grown man and can dress himself.
All questions are about the external only.
The external is maybe what attracts us when we first meet, but it won't sustain a relationship.
Since y'all actually are married, I'd appreciate your thoughts. Blessings.
Just my opinion!
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RE: Married Folk ~ Please weigh in on this one - 12/22/2007 9:43:06 AM
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CoeurdeLeon
Posts: 7948
Joined: 9/4/2005
From: Inside my head
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quote:
ORIGINAL: draexo
quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
It has been said where this great debate goes on that...
Where is this?
It is HERE.
Please feel free to post your comments there if you wish. You may find some bizarre opinions there sinc | | |
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