911 in Context: A Marine Veteran's Perspective (Full Version)

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Backpacker -> 911 in Context: A Marine Veteran's Perspective (9/9/2007 4:35:04 PM)

On Sept 11, 2003 a US Marine veteran gave this speech

Excerpts:


Places such as Iran, where the CIA engineered a coup in 1953 that overthrew the democratically-elected Prime Minister Mohammed Mossadegh, and installed the Shah and supported his secret police force, SAVAK, who tortured and murdered thousands of Iranians, do not warrant American tears. Nor do the countless number of Filipinos, who suffered at the hands of the U.S.-backed dictator, Ferdinand Marcos. The tens of thousands of Guatemalans who were tortured, disappeared, and died at the hands of many U.S.-supported dictators and puppet presidents in the four decades that followed the 1954 CIA coup that overthrew the democratically-elected presidency of Jacobo Arbenz, do not receive official American sorrow. The 2 million Vietnamese, the 300,000 Laotians, and the 600,000 Cambodians whom the U.S. military murdered in the 1960s and 1970s hold little place in our collective consciousness outside of Hollywood, and there exists no national day of remembrance for them like we have for our 3,000 victims of 9/11. Nor do the 500,000 Indonesians or the 200,000 East Timorese who were slaughtered by the U.S.-backed dictator, General Suharto, after yet another CIA coup in 1965.

................................

When the people of Zaire tried their hand at democracy in 1961, the CIA called for its death when it supported Patrice Lumumba's assassination and then supported the dictator Mobutu's reign of terror for the next three and half decades. Yet, Mobutu's tens of thousands of victims are virtually unknown in the U.S., nor are the many Zairians who died at the hands of U.S.-hired South African mercenaries during the 1960s, some of whom lynched their victims, because they were opposing a dictatorship. The thousands of Peruvians who were murdered by their U.S.-backed military in the 1980s receive no official moments of silence on a sacred date, as does our 9/11. The Dominican dictator, Rafael Trujillo, killed and tortured tens of thousands of Haitians and Dominicans during his three-decades of U.S. support, and yet we still have no day of mourning for his victims because we encouraged their suffering. The tens of thousands of Argentines, Brazilians, Uruguayans, Bolivians, Mexicans, and Paraguayans who were murdered under U.S.-backed dictators and de facto dictators during the Cold War only add to the list of millions of direct victims of U.S. intervention who go unnoticed, and in effect drop out of history.




FOLLOW_THE_SON -> RE: 911 in Context: A Marine Veteran's Perspective (9/9/2007 5:50:25 PM)

The problem with messages like this is that historical records make it hard for the various branches of the Armed Services to meet their recruiting goals.It's of paramount importance that our nation continue to train enough of it's young to murder and maim and adopt the government's philosophy that the end justifies any means whatsoever in order to maintain our American way of life

"BY THEIR FRUITS YE SHALL KNOW THEM".




Backpacker -> RE: 911 in Context: A Marine Veteran's Perspective (9/9/2007 6:08:44 PM)

Yeah, like these historical records for example.




Backpacker -> RE: 911 in Context: A Marine Veteran's Perspective (9/9/2007 8:01:02 PM)

And historical records like these




Jhud -> RE: 911 in Context: A Marine Veteran's Perspective (9/10/2007 12:01:05 AM)

I'm having a hard time figuring out what this has to do with 9/11?




brooklynsblessed1 -> RE: 911 in Context: A Marine Veteran's Perspective (9/10/2007 12:16:34 AM)

Everything has some kind of plot behind it.




buckifn -> RE: 911 in Context: A Marine Veteran's Perspective (9/10/2007 3:56:03 AM)

Is there a point here? If so, I think I missed it.




stamper_ben -> RE: 911 in Context: A Marine Veteran's Perspective (9/10/2007 8:09:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

I'm having a hard time figuring out what this has to do with 9/11?

It has nada to do with 9/11 and everything to do with "Blame America first."




cow451 -> RE: 911 in Context: A Marine Veteran's Perspective (9/10/2007 7:17:03 PM)

America supporting dictators? Undermining sovereign governments? Attempting regime change? I'm stunned. [8|]




cow451 -> RE: 911 in Context: A Marine Veteran's Perspective (9/10/2007 7:18:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stamper_ben

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

I'm having a hard time figuring out what this has to do with 9/11?

It has nada to do with 9/11 and everything to do with "Blame America first."

It's a trick he learned from His Excellency and Mayor Rudy. Connect 9/11 to everything and hope nobody reads the fine print.




Zhi -> RE: 911 in Context: A Marine Veteran's Perspective (9/10/2007 8:15:05 PM)

quote:

The 2 million Vietnamese, the 300,000 Laotians, and the 600,000 Cambodians whom the U.S. military murdered in the 1960s and 1970s hold little place in our collective consciousness outside of Hollywood


While I agree that our government has done some really stupid, and some really heinous, things in the past, I'm really going to have to take issue with anyone who calls my father a murderer.

You see, my father is a Vietnam veteran. He went over there and he served his country, and then he came back to be spit on and harrassed by the people he was shot at and mortared to protect. In the process he lost 18 months of his life and almost 3 years of college because they changed graduation requirements while he was away.

The US military is made up of a bunch of guys like my dad, who are doing their best for our country. Save your venom for the people who are actually responsible. Save it for the politicians, not for the grunts on the ground who are only doing what they've been told is their necessary and patriotic duty.

Bluntly, a marine should know better.




KingsFool -> RE: 911 in Context: A Marine Veteran's Perspective (9/10/2007 8:44:00 PM)

Wait. I'm not sure I'm reading these particular posts on Crosswalk....what has happened?

KF




iluvatar -> RE: 911 in Context: A Marine Veteran's Perspective (9/11/2007 2:22:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

I'm having a hard time figuring out what this has to do with 9/11?


It's an attempt to contrast the horror, sadness, and outrage we Americans express over the murder of 3000 of our citizens with the willful ignorance and disregard we show to the hundreds of thousands of deaths that we, as a nation, are at least partly responsible for. We supported a lot of ruthless folks under the guise of fighting communism.

quote:

It has nada to do with 9/11 and everything to do with "Blame America first."


It's not about blaming America first, it's about trying to take an honest, unbiased look at our history. Once you read about all the stuff we (particularly, the CIA) pulled over the last 50 years, you'll be surprised we're not hated even more.

Even now, we talk about spreading democracy in the Middle East, but have repeatedly shown that it's not simply democracy we're concerned with. It's Pro-Americanism that's most important; democracy is a distant 2nd.

-Dan.




Zhi -> RE: 911 in Context: A Marine Veteran's Perspective (9/11/2007 2:42:19 AM)

quote:

We supported a lot of ruthless folks under the guise of fighting communism.


Honestly I'm finding it hard to figure out how I'm responsible for stuff that happened before I was born, much less before I could vote.

quote:

It's not about blaming America first, it's about trying to take an honest, unbiased look at our history. Once you read about all the stuff we (particularly, the CIA) pulled over the last 50 years, you'll be surprised we're not hated even more.


There's a difference between saying "let's learn from our mistakes and reign in our more zealous folks" and saying "our entire country sucks due to stuff that almost no one knew was even happening". Do we need to tell our government that they need to cut that garbage out? Absolutely. But insinuating that the entire country knew what was going on and approved of it is fairly ludicrous.

quote:

Even now, we talk about spreading democracy in the Middle East, but have repeatedly shown that it's not simply democracy we're concerned with. It's Pro-Americanism that's most important; democracy is a distant 2nd.


Last I checked we didn't go to war to spread democracy, we went to war because we (and by "we" I mean pretty much everyone, including both parties in Congress, check the votes, and most of our allies) were convinced that if we didn't, we would have to deal with watching our neighbors and children die from nuclear, chemical, and biological attacks in the near future. Yes, we found out later that Saddam didn't have half the stuff the entire planet was convinced he did, but all indicators showed otherwise.

If by "pro-american" you mean "not having to watch my baby daughter die coughing up blood because a Middle-East-state-sponsored terrorist hit us with a supervirus", then sign me up.




iluvatar -> RE: 911 in Context: A Marine Veteran's Perspective (9/11/2007 3:02:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zhi

quote:

Even now, we talk about spreading democracy in the Middle East, but have repeatedly shown that it's not simply democracy we're concerned with. It's Pro-Americanism that's most important; democracy is a distant 2nd.


Last I checked we didn't go to war to spread democracy, we went to war because we (and by "we" I mean pretty much everyone, including both parties in Congress, check the votes, and most of our allies) were convinced that if we didn't, we would have to deal with watching our neighbors and children die from nuclear, chemical, and biological attacks in the near future. Yes, we found out later that Saddam didn't have half the stuff the entire planet was convinced he did, but all indicators showed otherwise.

If by "pro-american" you mean "not having to watch my baby daughter die coughing up blood because a Middle-East-state-sponsored terrorist hit us with a supervirus", then sign me up.


At the expense of the lives of 10's of thousands of innocent foreigners under the rule of ruthless dictators who happen to align themselves with us politically? Most of the things listed in the OP were done under the banner of fighting communism, protecting us from the evil scourge. But if we're foolish about who we choose to associate with, those same individuals and organizations can turn on us when it suits them. At one time, we supported both Saddam Hussein and the mujahadeen. Should we have?

-Dan.




Zhi -> RE: 911 in Context: A Marine Veteran's Perspective (9/11/2007 3:15:17 AM)

20/20 hindsight is a lovely thing, isn't it.

What exactly would you suggest?

If we make the place the 51st state, terrorists will come after us for being imperialist.
If we pull out, we leave a power vacuum for terrorist-friendly governments to take over, and I doubt they're going to stop hating us simply because we left.
If we stay in, terrorists will come after us for being there.
Frankly, the only hope we have is to manage to set up a stable and law-abiding government that can "play nice" with the rest of the planet.

Need I remind you that they struck first? This *is* the anniversary you know. Do you honestly think they would have stopped had we done nothing? We did nothing when our African embassies were bombed, when the Cole was crippled. We did nothing the first time the WTC was attacked. If anything, the terrorists got more bold. What do you think we should have done?

6 years ago today I was driving into work and I heard a news report stating a small plane had hit one of the Twin Towers. The insanity of that day still haunts me as I sit here really early in the morning with a very fussy and non-sleeping baby daughter.




iluvatar -> RE: 911 in Context: A Marine Veteran's Perspective (9/11/2007 3:41:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zhi

20/20 hindsight is a lovely thing, isn't it.

What exactly would you suggest?

If we make the place the 51st state, terrorists will come after us for being imperialist.
If we pull out, we leave a power vacuum for terrorist-friendly governments to take over, and I doubt they're going to stop hating us simply because we left.
If we stay in, terrorists will come after us for being there.
Frankly, the only hope we have is to manage to set up a stable and law-abiding government that can "play nice" with the rest of the planet.

Need I remind you that they struck first? This *is* the anniversary you know. Do you honestly think they would have stopped had we done nothing? We did nothing when our African embassies were bombed, when the Cole was crippled. We did nothing the first time the WTC was attacked. If anything, the terrorists got more bold. What do you think we should have done?

6 years ago today I was driving into work and I heard a news report stating a small plane had hit one of the Twin Towers. The insanity of that day still haunts me as I sit here really early in the morning with a very fussy and non-sleeping baby daughter.


I'm not speaking about Iraq specifically. I'm saying that we should re-evaluate how we conduct our business in the world. Up until the 90's, we got in bed with people we knew were ruthless, because they were convenient tools for fighting communists. Some of them turned around to be our enemies today. Now we're getting in bed with dictators and other nefarious folk, because they're helping us fight the terrorists. Which of them will be our enemies tomorrow?

What I'm saying is that we should exercise a little more discernment in picking our friends.

-Dan.




Zhi -> RE: 911 in Context: A Marine Veteran's Perspective (9/11/2007 3:49:58 AM)

We also got into bed with Stalin in the first place. Are you suggesting that wasn't worth stopping Hitler? As far as I can tell, we wouldn't have won otherwise.

It can be very difficult to tell who will turn into a brutal dictator and who won't. Perhaps we could give them a questionnaire. "Do you intend to become a brutal dictator who we will have to get rid of within the next 20 years? Please check one. Yes [ ] No [ ]"




EverLearning -> RE: 911 in Context: A Marine Veteran's Perspective (9/11/2007 6:48:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: iluvatar
Now we're getting in bed with dictators and other nefarious folk, because they're helping us fight the terrorists. Which of them will be our enemies tomorrow?

What I'm saying is that we should exercise a little more discernment in picking our friends.

-Dan.


It is awfully convenient to be able to make these decisions when you aren't actually the one with ensuring security isn't it? Those in charge don't always have the luxury of picking to play with only the nice guys.




iluvatar -> RE: 911 in Context: A Marine Veteran's Perspective (9/11/2007 8:55:33 AM)

This has been moved to "conspiracy central"?

quote:

ORIGINAL: EverLearning
It is awfully convenient to be able to make these decisions when you aren't actually the one with ensuring security isn't it? Those in charge don't always have the luxury of picking to play with only the nice guys.


Actually, there were at least a few cases where the guy we ousted was the nice (or at least, nicer) guy, but we thought he might be more friendly with Russia than we'd like, so we replaced him. I'm not saying that the decisions to deal with these folks went all the way to the top; in fact, they often didn't. More often than not though, somebody in the chain on our side knew who we were dealing with, but chose to deal with them anyways.

Try reading some material on the history of the cia. I just finished Legacy of Ashes; it's pretty amazing all the stunts we pulled.

-Dan.




EverLearning -> RE: 911 in Context: A Marine Veteran's Perspective (9/11/2007 9:34:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: iluvatar

This has been moved to "conspiracy central"?

quote:

ORIGINAL: EverLearning
It is awfully convenient to be able to make these decisions when you aren't actually the one with ensuring security isn't it? Those in charge don't always have the luxury of picking to play with only the nice guys.


Actually, there were at least a few cases where the guy we ousted was the nice (or at least, nicer) guy, but we thought he might be more friendly with Russia than we'd like, so we replaced him. I'm not saying that the decisions to deal with these folks went all the way to the top; in fact, they often didn't. More often than not though, somebody in the chain on our side knew who we were dealing with, but chose to deal with them anyways.

Try reading some material on the history of the cia. I just finished Legacy of Ashes; it's pretty amazing all the stunts we pulled.

-Dan.


I am not denying that we did in fact support some unsavory people. I am well aware of our history. That doesn't change the fact that we are looking back on it saying what should have been done to stop what eventually happened. The people back then were making decisions in an attempt to stop the spread of communism and did not have the benefit of knowing what was to happen in the future. I am sure that they knew sometimes that they were dealing with less than desiriable people but they were making decisions based on their goals at the time. We wanted to keep the Russians from gaining ground closer to us and our allys and in doing so we had to make some tough decisions and some of them blew up in our face. Thing is we can not say what would have happened had we not done the things we did, the communists didn't exactly have a good record of treating those who came under their power as they expanded, maybe more would have died had we not made the decisions we did, maybe less we will never know all we can do is look back and criticize what actually did happen. If we had done nothing and another world war had broken out and millions more died we would be sitting back saying we should have supported some of the very people we did support but we went a different route and we can not change that. We do know that us and our allies did not fall under the rule of the Russians, we can never know if it would have happened without our actions or not but it is the reality of the what did happen.




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