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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2009 1:50:57 PM
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gmcspice
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quote:
I do not disagree with what you are stating if you are referring to ministry specific to males and females.
I guess that is what I am trying to say.
I am not a against women listening to male preachers/evangelists/ teachers, etc. Nor am I against men listening to women do the same thing. I really believe in my heart that we are to be partners, equals with Christ as the head of the Church just like he said.
We should really recognize each gift. as a gift to the Church body NOT a gift to a man or woman. It is for the edification of all.
Now in the home, man is most certainly head and wife is the help mate. Equal but different roles.
I believe that is where people get mixed up and confused. If we were to look at all gifts to the Church as equal, equal there would not even be this argument.
I mean the hand is no better than the foot and can't say 'Foot, I don't need you'. Also, how is it okay that a man can do the same duty as a woman but not vice-versa. That is just not how I see God in the Bible or in my life or anybody else's. The Holy Spirit teaches all of us all things of God the same. It does not say "you are a woman so I can't tell you this," or "you are a man so I can't tell you this".
If we saw each other as God sees us, equal not one above the other, there would be no need to say a woman is usurping authority, because she would not be.
Something else we need to look at, when the teachers are done making us disciples for God, are they still over us? no, we are on the same level as they are. No longer Babes in Christ.
We must face the fact that men and women are created in God's image, equal in his eyes and responsible for each other. I mean aren't we supposed to be each others keeper? I believe we are. I don't believe it says one is suppose to be over the other. That we are suppose to edify each other.
But then that is my opinion.
_____________________________
To have friends, you have to be a friend!
gmcspice4GOD
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2009 11:07:32 AM
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GodsGiddyGirl
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
How does dominance relate to the two things you posted? It is not mentioned or hinted at at all.
The evidence suggests they are not connected. One happens after the other as a result of sin.
Before sin entered in, male and female were both mandated to be fruitful and to co-rule. Their functions (roles) were the same. In other words – hierarchy (and male dominance, rule) did not exist between the male and female until after the fall ... thus not God’s original intent.
quote:
Besides, dominance is the incorrect way to run a church anyway.
Agreed.
Time to prepare. Scheduled for another hike in the forest of oak, hickory, sweet gum, and pine trees. My secret place.
Blessings, GGGirl
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2009 11:16:54 AM
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Eutychus
Posts: 9165
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GodsGiddyGirl
Before sin entered in, male and female were both mandated to be fruitful and to co-rule. Their functions (roles) were the same. In other words – hierarchy (and male dominance, rule) did not exist between the male and female until after the fall ... thus not God’s original intent.
How do you explain that God considered sin to have entered the world when Adam sinned instead of Eve, who was the first to actually disobey God? It would seem God considered him to be the head of humanity (AND a type of Christ, who is head of the Church) in that stark difference. (See Romans 5)
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2009 6:20:57 PM
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GodsGiddyGirl
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
How do you explain that God considered sin to have entered the world when Adam sinned instead of Eve, who was the first to actually disobey God? It would seem God considered him to be the head of humanity (AND a type of Christ, who is head of the Church) in that stark difference. (See Romans 5)
Those are good questions. Ones to ponder.
Could it be that God sees them as one and relates to them as one? Their eyes weren’t opened until they both partook of the fruit, showing the oneness they had.
As human beings. we like to have everything in boxes. We like to put things in a folder and say, this is this, and file it away. We like that kind of structure, and particularly in our culture. Our culture is what I would think of as masculine culture. I think, Larry Crab put it like this – in God there is both mystery and mastery. And, in our culture, we like the mastery. We like the bits we can understand and file away. The bits that we can almost – control. But in God there seems to be more mystery than mastery.
Back to my point – the man and woman, both, were commissioned by God to be fruitful, to take dominion. To co-rule. To co-lead. To co-operate. They had the same function. The same role.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/14/2009 10:27:15 AM
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Eutychus
Posts: 9165
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GodsGiddyGirl
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
How do you explain that God considered sin to have entered the world when Adam sinned instead of Eve, who was the first to actually disobey God? It would seem God considered him to be the head of humanity (AND a type of Christ, who is head of the Church) in that stark difference. (See Romans 5)
Those are good questions. Ones to ponder.
Could it be that God sees them as one and relates to them as one? Their eyes weren’t opened until they both partook of the fruit, showing the oneness they had.
Then why single Adam out as the one where sin originated? Adam, not Adam & Eve, is treated as the corporate head of humanity by God.
After they sinned, God called out to Adam, "Where are you?", not to Adam & Eve. When God confronted them, He did not treat them as a unit. He dealt with them as individuals. I'm sorry, that oneness business will not work in that case.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/14/2009 11:10:49 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 3441
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From: California
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quote:
Before sin entered in, male and female were both mandated to be fruitful and to co-rule. Their functions (roles) were the same. In other words – hierarchy (and male dominance, rule) did not exist between the male and female until after the fall ... thus not God’s original intent.
Actually, this is quite untrue and it is a false dichotomy; biblically, we are NOT ONLY left with the choice between dominance or identical roles. The biblical text doesn't suggest that a man's role is ever to domineer a woman, but it is quite clear that there was a difference in the roles that began with creation. In Gen 2:18 it says "Then the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him."" In Hebrew the phrase is 'ezer kenegdo' or literally "a helper as his opposite." While God did tell them both to be fruitful and to "co-rule" the earth, he did NOT tell them that they would do so in exactly the same roles, and every indication we have from the text of Genesis indicates that had equal but different roles. Even in the passage you quoted from (Ge. 1:26-1:31) we have a subtle reminder that differences in roles is God's design. The biblical picture of the role difference between men and woman (that God intended from creation) can very much be seen in the role differences we see in the Godhead itself. Although Jesus and God the Father are clearly both equally God, and both "co-rule" ALL of creation, we are reminded again and again in Scripture that Christ submits his will to to the Fathers. His submission is not ever presented as "being domineered" nor is his submission ever a sign of his inferiority, etc... Because he and the father are one, it is NEVER (nor will it ever be) an issue.
quote:
How do you explain that God considered sin to have entered the world when Adam sinned instead of Eve, who was the first to actually disobey God? It would seem God considered him to be the head of humanity (AND a type of Christ, who is head of the Church) in that stark difference. (See Romans 5)
While agree strongly with you that these passages do indicate that Adam is considered the head and responsible party for the inception of sin. However, the idea that Eve sinned first is not quite so clear. Unfortunately, Gen 3 is one passage that translates better into almost any language other than modern English and the modern English reader is often left with an impression that is not accurate. In English we use the word "YOU" for both the 2nd person singular and the second person plural, but in most other languages (including the Hebrew of the bible) there are different words used for both these pronouns. In the conversation between the serpent and Eve every pronoun is in the plural and the passage concludes with the statement that "and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate." (Gen 3:6). In other languages the picture we see is that Adam was right there with Eve while the servant deceived her, he was there and said nothing. As the head who was supposed to protect his wife, he failed. So, while it can be said that Eve first ate the fruit, it is not quite so easy to conclude that she first "sinned".
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/14/2009 11:46:41 AM
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GodsGiddyGirl
Posts: 62
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
After they sinned, God called out to Adam, "Where are you?", not to Adam & Eve. When God confronted them, He did not treat them as a unit. He dealt with them as individuals. I'm sorry, that oneness business will not work in that case.
Neglected to express my complete thought yesterday.
Could it be, before sin entered, they were just one? After sin, they were two. But, on the cross, they have been united again. There is neither male nor female in Christ.
Going back to re-read Benelchi's post.
Blessings, GGGirl
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/20/2009 2:48:31 PM
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Crushmaster
Posts: 761
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For those who think Deborah proves God doesn't mind women over men, I would read this...This is mainly speaking of secular authority, but it's certainly worth the read.
http://www.visionforumministries.org/issues/ballot_box/should_christians_support_a_wo.aspx
Scroll down a bit where it talks about Deborah, or, preferably, read the whole thing.
Plus some thoughts...
Man had dominion over woman BEFORE the Fall. The fact she was created for him proves this. Look:
(1 Corinthians 11:8-9) - "For man is not from woman, but woman from man. {9} Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man."
God bless,
Crushmaster.
_____________________________
http://www.areyouagoodperson.org
(2 Corinthians 5:17) - "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
Christ is Lord and King! To Him I give all glory and honor.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/20/2009 11:11:45 PM
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GodsGiddyGirl
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Crushmaster
<snip>I would read this...This is mainly speaking of secular authority...
Skimming the essay, I noticed one of the author’s claims was that Deborah didn’t have civil authority. However, in Judges 4:4-5, “Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was judging Israel at that time. She used to sit under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim; and the sons of Israel came up to her for judgment.” She had a civil role in a public place.
Another example, in Esther 9:29, “Then Queen Esther, (daughter of Abihail, with Mordecai the Jew, wrote with full authority to confirm this second letter about Purim.” She had the power (over the Jewish people) to give orders and establish new rules regarding Purim.
quote:
Plus some thoughts...
Man had dominion over woman BEFORE the Fall. The fact she was created for him proves this. Look:
(1 Corinthians 11:8-9) - "For man is not from woman, but woman from man. {9} Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man."
In 1 Corinthians 11:9, the Hebrew word “for” is not evidence for lesser authority. In Genesis, the main idea being made is that the man was incomplete without the woman. This verse says nothing about authority. In verse 11, Paul concludes that men and women are mutually dependent.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2009 12:59:39 AM
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myka
Posts: 686
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quote:
For those who think Deborah proves God doesn't mind women over men, I would read this...This is mainly speaking of secular authority, but it's certainly worth the read.
http://www.visionforumministries.org/issues/ballot_box/should_christians_support_a_wo.aspx
That article has so many places where the author's viewpoint colors his 'interpretation' of scripture...
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2009 3:23:32 PM
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Crushmaster
Posts: 761
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From: The South, In The Good Ol' U.S. of A.
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quote:
GodsGiddyGirl
Skimming the essay, I noticed one of the author’s claims was that Deborah didn’t have civil authority. However, in Judges 4:4-5, “Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was judging Israel at that time. She used to sit under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim; and the sons of Israel came up to her for judgment.” She had a civil role in a public place.
Ma'am, he explained that. I think you need to read the article more in-depth.
quote:
GodsGiddyGirl
Another example, in Esther 9:29, “Then Queen Esther, (daughter of Abihail, with Mordecai the Jew, wrote with full authority to confirm this second letter about Purim.” She had the power (over the Jewish people) to give orders and establish new rules regarding Purim.
She was Queen of Persia. I don't see how this proves anything.
quote:
GodsGiddyGirl
In 1 Corinthians 11:9, the Hebrew word “for” is not evidence for lesser authority. In Genesis, the main idea being made is that the man was incomplete without the woman. This verse says nothing about authority. In verse 11, Paul concludes that men and women are mutually dependent.
...Ma'am, the verse is clear. Woman was made FOR the man! Would you think something which was made for you would have equal authority with you? Besides this...
(Genesis 2:18-25) - "And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. {19} And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. {20} And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. {21} And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; {22} And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. {23} And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. {24} Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. {25} And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed."
Yes, men and women are mutually dependent; both have roles to fulfill. But woman was made for the man, as that verse says; you can deny it, but it will not change what it says. Man always has had authority over woman; she was created for our [men's] help and comfort, and we are to protect, care for, and cherish her.
It's not popular, but it's Bible, ma'am. Another note that man was already the authority, and always has been: The blame for the Fall was put on the MAN! Adam!
(1 Corinthians 15:22) - "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive."
He was given the blame.
God bless,
Crushmaster.
_____________________________
http://www.areyouagoodperson.org
(2 Corinthians 5:17) - "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
Christ is Lord and King! To Him I give all glory and honor.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2009 5:43:19 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 9165
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
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Were/Are you under the authority of your MOTHER?
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/22/2009 1:32:50 AM
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Crushmaster
Posts: 761
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From: The South, In The Good Ol' U.S. of A.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
Were/Are you under the authority of your MOTHER?
Yes sir.
And?
God bless,
Crushmaster.
_____________________________
http://www.areyouagoodperson.org
(2 Corinthians 5:17) - "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
Christ is Lord and King! To Him I give all glory and honor.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/22/2009 11:30:51 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 3441
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Crushmaster
For those who think Deborah proves God doesn't mind women over men, I would read this...This is mainly speaking of secular authority, but it's certainly worth the read.
http://www.visionforumministries.org/issues/ballot_box/should_christians_support_a_wo.aspx
Scroll down a bit where it talks about Deborah, or, preferably, read the whole thing.
Here is what I read in this article:
"Second, the judges during this period were more military leaders or “avenging deliverers” than they were civil magistrates (cf. Judg. 2:16-19). Because of this fact, we must ask ourselves if we can even consider Deborah to be a “judge” in the same sense as the other judges in the book. The account of Deborah is unique in that she did not lead Israel into battle herself (as did the other judges in the book), but, rather, the Lord choose Barak to be the military commander. Would it not be more accurate to say that Barak was the true “judge” here (cf. Heb. 11:32 where Barak alone is mentioned), and that Deborah’s role was that of a “prophetess” who gave divine guidance to Israel?"
And here is what I read in Scripture:
Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was judging Israel at that time. And she used to sit under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim; and the sons of Israel came up to her for judgment. (Jdg 4:4-5 NAS)
Scripture says that Deborah was a Judge, NOT Barak. The man who wrote this article claims that Barak was the "real" judge, NOT Deborah. I choose to believe Scripture!
Do you really expect people on this forum to reject the biblical account given in Judges and instead adopt the unbiblical claims made by this author?
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/22/2009 1:55:18 PM
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backrowbaptist
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Allow me to chime in, as I just picked up this thread.
On the issue of Deborah and the article cited above, the author discussed the song of Deborah and Barak in Judges 5. His take was solid enough, but he neglected to mention something that no one seems to notice.
1 On that day Deborah and Barak son of Abinoam sang this song:
2 "When the princes in Israel take the lead,
when the people willingly offer themselves—
praise the LORD!
and..
9 My heart is with Israel's princes
and..
15 The princes of Issachar were with Deborah;
yes, Issachar was with Barak,
sent under his command into the valley.
Even after the great victory God used her to accomplish, it seems Deborah had no problem acknowledging the leadership role God gave to men.
_____________________________
Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
"If you can't suffer fools you're on the wrong planet"" - Unknown (to me)
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 8/24/2009 8:50:46 AM
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Eutychus
Posts: 9165
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Crushmaster
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
Were/Are you under the authority of your MOTHER?
Yes sir.
And?
I just find it interesting that God ordained that you should be under the authority of a woman, that's all.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 9/12/2009 8:27:20 AM
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pabrain
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Yes all very well, but what does Scripture say?
1Ti 2:11 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.
1Ti 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve;
1Ti 2:14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 9/12/2009 1:13:44 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 3441
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pabrain
Yes all very well, but what does Scripture say?
1Ti 2:11 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.
1Ti 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve;
1Ti 2:14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
Most Greek Scholars believe this is a poor translation, and it is a translation that was not reflected by any version prior to the 1900's. So, lets' REALLY take a look at what the Scripture says, and that takes hard work and study rather than simply a "proof" text.
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 9/12/2009 1:54:54 PM
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TheosCentric
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: pabrain
Yes all very well, but what does Scripture say?
1Ti 2:11 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.
1Ti 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve;
1Ti 2:14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
Most Greek Scholars believe this is a poor translation, and it is a translation that was not reflected by any version prior to the 1900's. So, lets' REALLY take a look at what the Scripture says, and that takes hard work and study rather than simply a "proof" text.
I would ask who most of these Greek Scholars are?
Here's what teach means:
G1321:
διδάσκω (didaskō)
1. to teach
1. to hold discourse with others in order to instruct them, deliver didactic discourses
2. to be a teacher
3. to discharge the office of a teacher, conduct one's self as a teacher
2. to teach one
1. to impart instruction
2. instill doctrine into one
3. the thing taught or enjoined
4. to explain or expound a thing
5. to teach one something
teach, taught
G0831:
αὐθεντέω (authenteō)
1. one who with his own hands kills another or himself
2. one who acts on his own authority, autocratic
3. an absolute master
4. to govern, exercise dominion over one
usurp authority over
So, what's the problem? Other than personal sinful desires on those would desire for women to have authority over men in the Church.
_____________________________
God uses our bad will to accomplish His good will. - R.C. Sproul
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 9/12/2009 3:27:19 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 3441
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: pabrain
Yes all very well, but what does Scripture say?
1Ti 2:11 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.
1Ti 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve;
1Ti 2:14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
Most Greek Scholars believe this is a poor translation, and it is a translation that was not reflected by any version prior to the 1900's. So, lets' REALLY take a look at what the Scripture says, and that takes hard work and study rather than simply a "proof" text.
I would ask who most of these Greek Scholars are?
Here's what teach means:
G1321:
διδάσκω (didaskō)
1. to teach
1. to hold discourse with others in order to instruct them, deliver didactic discourses
2. to be a teacher
3. to discharge the office of a teacher, conduct one's self as a teacher
2. to teach one
1. to impart instruction
2. instill doctrine into one
3. the thing taught or enjoined
4. to explain or expound a thing
5. to teach one something
teach, taught
G0831:
αὐθεντέω (authenteō)
1. one who with his own hands kills another or himself
2. one who acts on his own authority, autocratic
3. an absolute master
4. to govern, exercise dominion over one
usurp authority over
So, what's the problem? Other than personal sinful desires on those would desire for women to have authority over men in the Church.
To start with, these Greek scholars are the ones that provided the definition of αὐθεντέω (authenteō) that you provided. This definition reflects a much stronger negative tone than what was reflected in the version quoted. It even includes the KJV quotation of that verse, which also conveys a much stronger negative tone.
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 9/12/2009 9:47:46 PM
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myka
Posts: 686
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quote:
G0831:
αὐθεντέω (authenteō)
1. one who with his own hands kills another or himself
2. one who acts on his own authority, autocratic
3. an absolute master
4. to govern, exercise dominion over one
usurp authority over
So, what's the problem? Other than personal sinful desires on those would desire for women to have authority over men in the Church.
The definitions seem to indicate an attitude of acting as one's own authority -- independently or outside an authority structure.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 9/13/2009 2:27:27 AM
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Sammy_S
Posts: 414
Joined: 10/6/2007
From: Brampton,Ontario
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: pabrain
Yes all very well, but what does Scripture say?
1Ti 2:11 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.
1Ti 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve;
1Ti 2:14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
Most Greek Scholars believe this is a poor translation, and it is a translation that was not reflected by any version prior to the 1900's. So, lets' REALLY take a look at what the Scripture says, and that takes hard work and study rather than simply a "proof" text.
Like who?
_____________________________
"Peace if possible,truth at all cost"-Martin Luther
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 9/13/2009 7:19:53 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 3073
Joined: 2/26/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: pabrain
Yes all very well, but what does Scripture say?
1Ti 2:11 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.
1Ti 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve;
1Ti 2:14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
Most Greek Scholars believe this is a poor translation, and it is a translation that was not reflected by any version prior to the 1900's. So, lets' REALLY take a look at what the Scripture says, and that takes hard work and study rather than simply a "proof" text.
I would ask who most of these Greek Scholars are?
Here's what teach means:
G1321:
διδάσκω (didaskō)
1. to teach
1. to hold discourse with others in order to instruct them, deliver didactic discourses
2. to be a teacher
3. to discharge the office of a teacher, conduct one's self as a teacher
2. to teach one
1. to impart instruction
2. instill doctrine into one
3. the thing taught or enjoined
4. to explain or expound a thing
5. to teach one something
teach, taught
G0831:
αὐθεντέω (authenteō)
1. one who with his own hands kills another or himself
2. one who acts on his own authority, autocratic
3. an absolute master
4. to govern, exercise dominion over one
usurp authority over
So, what's the problem? Other than personal sinful desires on those would desire for women to have authority over men in the Church.
To start with, these Greek scholars are the ones that provided the definition of αὐθεντέω (authenteō) that you provided. This definition reflects a much stronger negative tone than what was reflected in the version quoted. It even includes the KJV quotation of that verse, which also conveys a much stronger negative tone.
So, what's the problem with the interpretation of that verse then?
_____________________________
God uses our bad will to accomplish His good will. - R.C. Sproul
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2009 11:11:04 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 3441
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sammy_S
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: pabrain
Yes all very well, but what does Scripture say?
1Ti 2:11 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.
1Ti 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve;
1Ti 2:14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
Most Greek Scholars believe this is a poor translation, and it is a translation that was not reflected by any version prior to the 1900's. So, lets' REALLY take a look at what the Scripture says, and that takes hard work and study rather than simply a "proof" text.
Like who?
Bruce, Grudhem, Metzger, Foe, Mounce, Beale, Silva, Strauss, Carson, etc..
Even those scholars who hold very traditional views (like Culver) acknowledge that most modern translations miss the very negative nuance of authenteō in 1 Ti 2.
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2009 11:15:50 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 3441
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: pabrain
Yes all very well, but what does Scripture say?
1Ti 2:11 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.
1Ti 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve;
1Ti 2:14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
Most Greek Scholars believe this is a poor translation, and it is a translation that was not reflected by any version prior to the 1900's. So, lets' REALLY take a look at what the Scripture says, and that takes hard work and study rather than simply a "proof" text.
I would ask who most of these Greek Scholars are?
Here's what teach means:
G1321:
διδάσκω (didaskō)
1. to teach
1. to hold discourse with others in order to instruct them, deliver didactic discourses
2. to be a teacher
3. to discharge the office of a teacher, conduct one's self as a teacher
2. to teach one
1. to impart instruction
2. instill doctrine into one
3. the thing taught or enjoined
4. to explain or expound a thing
5. to teach one something
teach, taught
G0831:
αὐθεντέω (authenteō)
1. one who with his own hands kills another or himself
2. one who acts on his own authority, autocratic
3. an absolute master
4. to govern, exercise dominion over one
usurp authority over
So, what's the problem? Other than personal sinful desires on those would desire for women to have authority over men in the Church.
To start with, these Greek scholars are the ones that provided the definition of αὐθεντέω (authenteō) that you provided. This definition reflects a much stronger negative tone than what was reflected in the version quoted. It even includes the KJV quotation of that verse, which also conveys a much stronger negative tone.
So, what's the problem with the interpretation of that verse then?
It makes no distinction between "usurping authority" (i.e. taking an authoritative role that one had no right to take) and "having authority" (holding a position of authority that one was given the right to hold). One is an example of a "power grab" and the other is an example of submitting to the authority of the church leadership.
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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