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A terrible commentary - 3/16/2009 1:47:34 PM
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BenHarris
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Joined: 9/17/2007
From: Nashville, TN
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This morning early we arrived back in Nashville from our road trip, and while I was getting my things off the bus to take home. a driver from one of the bus lease companies that park their buses in the same lot, came over to me to talk for awhile. I have talked with him several times before but I do not know his name. He opened the conversation by asking me, "The group you are with is a gospel group, right?" And I told him, "Yes sir, Southern Sound Quartet". His lower lip began to quiver with emotion, and then he told me that for the last several months their company had been leasing to various Christian Rock groups. He then asked me, point blank, "Does you're group drink and watch porn videos?" And I told him under no certain terms, "No". I was a bit puzzled and then he began to openly weep, with tears streaming down his face. He told me, "I once did all those things, but when I changed my life, I gave all of that up. Now I am driving for these so called christian groups, and the first thing they do is get drunk, use foul language, and watch those dirty movies from the time we leave until the time I bring them back home". He said, "It ain't right. Young kids adore them and are learning from them and its just wrong." I was a bit shocked, so I asked him, "What group is doing this?" And he told me, "All of them....well not Avalon, but all the rest I have driven for."
I have long believed that the rock music influence in our churches was a bad omen of things to come, now I am convinced. If we have individuals out there, claiming to be Christian, but doing these kind of evil things, we need to put an end to this. Our young people deserve a better role model, and certainly He deserves a better witness. Now I did not get the names of the groups he has been driving for, but it would be an easy thing to find out. I don't think there is a valid reason to call names. But I do believe there is a valid reason for we Christians to stand against such indecent behavior. Christians beware, this is not of God.
< Message edited by BenHarris -- 3/16/2009 1:59:55 PM >
_____________________________
Southern Gospel is not screaming to the top of your lungs out of tune.
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RE: A terrible commentary - 3/16/2009 2:08:55 PM
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tafkam
Posts: 1356
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Keep in mind that Southern Gospel has long fought against the reputation of some groups whose members were known for drinking and womanizing, so it's not like one is a paragon of virtue over another.
I'm thinking you were given an exaggeration here by somebody who was already predisposed not to like modern worship music or artists, who perhaps did witness as he said, but then chose to apply it to EVERYBODY.
While there are bad apples in every cart, I am convinced from my own experience that the majority of folks involved in all genres of gospel music are on the up and up, called of God, and are genuine about pursuing that call on their life.
A side note, I personally feel that if this bus driver is going to make such blanket accusations, he should cough up some names. If his concerns are valid, then those of us who attend concerts and purchase CDs should be made aware of the actions of a given group.
I say this as an artist, and someone who would completely expect any immoral behavior on my part to be called out....
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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RE: A terrible commentary - 3/16/2009 2:28:24 PM
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Ps103
Posts: 12499
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From: Here, now
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Moving this from the Southern Gospel folder to the General Music folder, as we do not allow SoGo v CCM debates in the Southern Gospel folder.
Thanks!
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RE: A terrible commentary - 3/16/2009 2:55:30 PM
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holyrokker
Posts: 154
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This is a false story.
It's written in the format of thousands of other urban legends.
- detail that wouldn't be inculded in an actual account:
"His lower lip began to quiver with emotion,"
"I once did all those things, but when I changed my life, I gave all of that up"
- an unnamed, and unverifiable "first person" witness:
"a driver from one of the bus lease companies that park their buses in the same lot"
"I have talked with him several times before but I do not know his name"
- It's a broad accusation:
"various Christian Rock groups"
so I asked him, "What group is doing this?" And he told me, "All of them....well not Avalon, but all the rest I have driven for."
-It contains a warning to its audience:
"Young kids adore them and are learning from them and its just wrong"
BenHarris - I call what you've posted an egregiously sinful act of slander against hundreds of unnamed brothers and sisters in Christ.
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RE: A terrible commentary - 3/16/2009 2:59:20 PM
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holyrokker
Posts: 154
Joined: 4/29/2007
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p.s.
Most Christian "rock" bands don't use chartered buses. Most drive themselves from city to city.
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RE: A terrible commentary - 3/16/2009 3:40:33 PM
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BenHarris
Posts: 33
Joined: 9/17/2007
From: Nashville, TN
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quote:
ORIGINAL: holyrokker
This is a false story.
It's written in the format of thousands of other urban legends.
- detail that wouldn't be inculded in an actual account:
"His lower lip began to quiver with emotion,"
"I once did all those things, but when I changed my life, I gave all of that up"
- an unnamed, and unverifiable "first person" witness:
"a driver from one of the bus lease companies that park their buses in the same lot"
"I have talked with him several times before but I do not know his name"
- It's a broad accusation:
"various Christian Rock groups"
so I asked him, "What group is doing this?" And he told me, "All of them....well not Avalon, but all the rest I have driven for."
-It contains a warning to its audience:
"Young kids adore them and are learning from them and its just wrong"
BenHarris - I call what you've posted an egregiously sinful act of slander against hundreds of unnamed brothers and sisters in Christ.
How dare you accuse me of posting a false story. This is a factual account of what occurred this morning March 16th, about 10 am, at the Eagles Nest Garage here in Nashville, TN. (A local garage that caters to artists and leasing companies who own tour buses) I bring this to the attention of those who care to read and they can decide for themselves. But I can assure you the driver was very upset and his tears were not made up. It is not intended to slander anyone. It distressed more than words can say, and it grieves me to think anyone is doing as the driver clearly says they are. Believe me, he was not spreading false rumor, he did not tell me who he had been driving for, although that information could be easily obtained if one was to choose to do so. I posted this in concern and in total grief. If this is the norm for this genre, it needs to be posted. If this is a few rogue groups, then it still needs to be posted to root out that which is sinful. The only group the driver mentioned was Avalon, but he mentioned them only to reassure me that they WERE NOT guilty of such transgressions. Sir, I do not know you, but you are wrong to say I would ever post anything false. MY reputation is far more important to me, and my faith in God would not permit me to spread any falsehoods on anyone from any walk of life. Southern Gospel has had its share of bad apples too, and it has taken years to regain the trust of some fans and promoters. My word is my bond, and this gentleman was far from doing this in a hurtful manner. IN fact he had no motive whatsoever, nor did he know I would mention our conversation to anyone. He was obviously shaken and concerned. There was no motive for anything more than Christian concern, and obvious pain.
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Southern Gospel is not screaming to the top of your lungs out of tune.
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RE: A terrible commentary - 3/16/2009 3:55:16 PM
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musicboss11
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Sorry. Not buying it.
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RE: A terrible commentary - 3/16/2009 4:10:00 PM
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uncabeeil
Posts: 4546
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Joisey. Got a problem wit dat?
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Nope, me neither. If it were one or two or even a few, then maybe. But all? Except a band who haven't been on the road in four years? Nope. Go back to that driver and get those names he didn't want to name. And some physical proof rather than hearsay. So far your case wouldn't stand up in a courtroom.
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Well, I guess you're wondering why I've called this meeting.
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RE: A terrible commentary - 3/16/2009 4:23:11 PM
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gtrdave
Posts: 125
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Maybe it's true, maybe it's not. If it is, let's pray that the Holy Spirit convicts the guilty as only He can and that they seek first the Kingdom and righteousness. Then let's pray that we ourselves keep free from sin, be it gossip or slander or adultery or drunkenness or what have you. May our witness be pure and may it point others to the Perfect One.
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Seek the Lord and His strength; seek His face evermore!
http://www.myspace.com/daveplaystheguitar
http://www.youtube.com/gtrdave
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RE: A terrible commentary - 3/16/2009 4:49:42 PM
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holyrokker
Posts: 154
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BenHarris' post is still slanderous.
Did any of these unnamed bands sin directly against BenHarris?
BenHarris, you have publicly slandered hundreds of unnamed brothers and sisters in Christ in your attempt to discredit a style of music, against which you hold a bias.
In so doing you have impugned the reputations of every person associated with this style of music. You have publicly sinned against thousands of individuals whom you've never even met.
_____________________________
this world is not my home...
i'm just passing through...
-- Larry Norman 4/8/47 - 2/24/08
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RE: A terrible commentary - 3/16/2009 5:04:04 PM
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gtrdave
Posts: 125
Joined: 10/25/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BenHarris
MY reputation is far more important to me, and my faith in God would not permit me to spread any falsehoods on anyone from any walk of life.
But it's ok to go on a message forum and gossip and spread hearsay?
You should have told the bus driver to go to the brothers who were supposedly sinning so that he could have dealt with the issue right then and there. Instead you became another vine in the rumor weed.
Also, this statement, "I have long believed that the rock music influence in our churches was a bad omen of things to come, now I am convinced", really shows your true intent with this post.
Please, do not be like the Pharisee who would thank God because he's not like the tax collector.
Your and my righteousness is because of Christ, not because of you or me.
_____________________________
Seek the Lord and His strength; seek His face evermore!
http://www.myspace.com/daveplaystheguitar
http://www.youtube.com/gtrdave
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RE: A terrible commentary - 3/16/2009 6:26:34 PM
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BenHarris
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From: Nashville, TN
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This is not about the Eagles Nest, which is a bus garage in Nashville, that caters to owners of tour buses. The management there has no idea the driver spoke to me at all, but they do know me and the driver very well. They have maintained our coach for about 6 years now, and it has been parked in the last slot on the "pad" now for most of those 6 years. I called it a garage (which it is) to explain the type of business it is, not to its exact name. We, and everyone else that use their services, simply refer to it as "The Nest".
And no it is not possible that this particular driver has driven for ALL such groups, but in his dispair about this, those are the words he used...not me. I thought at the time that he was referring to those he had personally driven for, and I still do. But his inference, although hackling some feathers here that choose to write it off as a hoax, is still his inference. Believe what you will. I came home this morning, had breakfast with my lovely wife and she and I discussed what I should do. I did the only thing that my conscience would allow. How you receive it, beleive, or reject it, is totally up to you. And with that I am finished with this.
_____________________________
Southern Gospel is not screaming to the top of your lungs out of tune.
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RE: A terrible commentary - 3/16/2009 6:40:23 PM
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gtrdave
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BenHarris
I did the only thing that my conscience would allow.
Posting gossip and hearsay on an internet forum is the only thing that your conscience would allow?
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Seek the Lord and His strength; seek His face evermore!
http://www.myspace.com/daveplaystheguitar
http://www.youtube.com/gtrdave
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RE: A terrible commentary - 3/16/2009 10:07:34 PM
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tafkam
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Re-reading the original post, it's pretty obvious that there is an anti-Christian rock agenda here.
The accusations of slander and gossip may sound harsh, but in this case they are sound.
If you are going to make such claims, then you would be well advised to name some names. By all means let us know about these veritable hordes of Christian rock artists that do nothing but drink and watch porn while on tour. You would think that if this were so commonplace (keep in mind the driver said "all"), it would have passed somebody's mind to either confront the bands in question about it, or take it to their management or their pastors.
Why CCM must endure such comments and attitudes from some in the Southern Gospel camp is beyond me. In my 20+ years of music ministry, I have NEVER heard a CCM artist bash ANYONE in Southern Gospel. Quite the contrary, many of us were raised on it and have nothing but the utmost respect for the genre and it's artists.
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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RE: A terrible commentary - 3/16/2009 10:12:28 PM
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ProudtoServe
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I don't know Mr. Harris personally, but if what he says is true then I think he owes it to us to inform us of it. I would like to know the name of the groups this bus driver speaks of. I think it would bring a little more credibility to his story. I am sure there are such things that go on in this or any gospel music industry. I for one know that if I personally know of someone who has or is currently living a life of sin and is still trying to sing for our Lord and Savior I will not go hear them or support them. There are some I still won't go here today.
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RE: A terrible commentary - 3/16/2009 10:19:16 PM
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ta_mosquito
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From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
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I think the calls for naming names are understandable, but not RIGHT. I think it would be further division in the body to accuse certain groups of such things without giving them a right to defend themselves.
The bus driver should confront the groups themselves. It probably should've been done at the time of the bad behavior. If that doesn't work, go to the pastors of the band members as per Matthew 18.
To accuse specific groups of this without following the biblical prescription would be worse than just making vague accusations.
IMHO.
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LibriVox: acoustical liberation of books in the public domain
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RE: A terrible commentary - 3/16/2009 11:26:08 PM
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dbmurray
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From: NC
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It's somewhat amusing to see many of you posting anonymously while accusing Ben, who posts using his real first and last names, of being a liar.
In fairness to Ben, he posted this in the Southern Gospel folder where he is well known by a number of posters. I don't think he posted this with the idea of getting reactions from a group of complete strangers. One of the Southern Gospel moderators moved it to this forum to avoid a CCM vs. Southern Gospel debate over there.
I do happen to know Ben. I have met him, talked with him at length on several occasions, and I've reviewed a few of his group's CDs. I have no doubt that he's repeating the story he was told as accurately as possible.
Now, if I had been Ben, I wouldn't have drawn the same conclusion he drew about Christian "rock." For starters, I know Avalon is a pop group, not a rock group, so that would have given me some doubts about the driver's story. There's no doubt that Ben prefers traditional Southern Gospel, but by the same token, that doesn't mean he isn't accurately repeating what was said to him.
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David Bruce Murray
http://www.musicscribe.com
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RE: A terrible commentary - 3/17/2009 2:52:05 AM
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nashgirl
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Joined: 3/17/2009
From: Minneapolis, MN
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quote:
ORIGINAL: musicboss11
Sorry. Not buying it.
ditto.
I won't pin it on you, but there's a good chance that if YOU are telling the truth, you were not TOLD the truth.
I actually WORK for a (major) Christian band (out of the 'ville). I know a LOT of people in the biz... and I have been on a LOT of buses... and I have NEVER seen or even HEARD of any of what you (or this driver) claim! Besides, EVERY Christian band that I know of uses Hemphill Brothers for their buses... of which very few are ever leased for one-offs... and if they are, they would bring their OWN driver.
Sorry, bro... but it just doesn't add up to what I have seen and experienced in the last six years. In fact, most tours --especially with Christian rockers-- have a "Tour Book" that spells out all the rules of the tour... that are obeyed or you risk losing your job! I won't go into detail, but the rules are there for accountability and would NEVER allow for the kind of "debauchery" that your driver speaks of.
< Message edited by nashgirl -- 3/17/2009 3:17:02 PM >
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RE: A terrible commentary - 3/17/2009 6:10:56 AM
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armydude
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From: NC
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I can't buy this either. I, however, will not jump on the idea that you are lying, Ben. I will say that there's a distinct possibility that you were lied to. But I don't know that either. In any event, I believe that without naming the groups, this seems to be more of an attack against a genre than a sinful lifestyle. It may not be, but it looks that way to me.
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Imagine what we could do if we didn't spend so much time focusing on what we can't do.
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RE: A terrible commentary - 3/17/2009 9:43:38 AM
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gtrdave
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I still think that the original post was way out of line and had 1 major goal (to gossip and spread rumors) and 1 minor goal (to showcase the supposed evils of Christian rock and those who perform it).
Maybe it's because of the recent sermon series that I've been witness to, but, regardless, we shouldn't care about any further information from third-party sources who apparently have agendas above and beyond the spread of rumors and should really pray for all involved and pray to keep ourselves free from becoming part of the ugliness that operates within the Christian community that isn't the least bit Christ-like.
I don't care if you sing Southern Gospel or Christian Rap or worship songs in Mandarin, if you're singing songs that say anything to the effect of "take it to Jesus" then that's who you should be taking this garbage to. Not your wife, not the bus driver and certainly not a worldwide anonymous audience on the internet.
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Seek the Lord and His strength; seek His face evermore!
http://www.myspace.com/daveplaystheguitar
http://www.youtube.com/gtrdave
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RE: A terrible commentary - 3/17/2009 9:52:38 AM
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tafkam
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I agree with ta_mosquito...exactly what constitutes "porn" etc. I do know that a lotof these Christian bands are made up of young guys who don't mind a lot of roughhousing while on the bus....activity that could certainly be looked at as "drunkenness". I remember TobyMac giving an interview with his arm in a sling back during his DC Talk days, and saying it was teh result of wrestling on the bus.
As for "porn", well, I've heard people on these very forums refer to any movie over a PG rating as "porn". So I would guess it is possible they were referring to R rated movies.
But yeah, I've been in this business for years, and I have NEVER seen the sort of behavior the OP decribes. No doubt it may exist, but it is certainly not the norm.
And yes, taking the grievance to the bands in question would be far more appropriate that posting blankt accusations against an entire genre on a message board.
Something tells me that Mr. Harris would be upset indeed if I were to post a message slamming the entire Southern Gospel industry over the reputations of a few of it's artists for sinful behavior while on the road....
< Message edited by tafkam -- 3/17/2009 10:11:33 AM >
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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RE: A terrible commentary - 3/17/2009 10:31:59 AM
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kenworth
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I think there are good and bad in every kind of music....but I also think Ben Harris and I should go back to the Southern Gospel folder...this is a little to rough
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RE: A terrible commentary - 3/17/2009 11:20:56 AM
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tafkam
Posts: 1356
Joined: 9/23/2005
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Since when is it considered "rough" treatment to simply ask for specifics instead of blanket, vague accusations against unnamed artists, made by an unnamed source?
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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