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sinner and saint? (Lutheran) - 6/30/2009 4:15:02 PM
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drussell52
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Hi, hoping not to stir a hotbed of controversy but if I do please excuse or move me on. I know Lutheran tradition holds that believers are both sinner and saint, and that God is the only one who can continue to affect salvation in one's life. How does this dynamic encourage one to often present them selves to the LORD as a living sacrifice set apart for his service, Romans 12:1, for example. If obeying God-given principles for life is seen as "death" is a sense of covenant between God and Believer absent from this perspective? I find it defeating to tell someone they are both sinner and saint, for on the surface it seems to allow one to have their cake and eat it too because only God can continue to free someone. Perhaps I am seeing sin as an internal disease and my understanding is one can deter the terminality of most diseases though not totally eliminate it. What is sin to a Lutheran? Again not trying to stir up but get a better handle on this perspective. I consider myself an ex-Lutheran ideologically for personal reasons. Thanks. (Drussell52)
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RE: sinner and saint? (Lutheran) - 7/1/2009 11:29:48 AM
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Kath
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Moving from Theo House to Theo-The Church
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RE: sinner and saint? (Lutheran) - 7/1/2009 8:28:20 PM
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GrahamCracker
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I am inclined to agree with the Lutheran position as you have described it. I am not conversant about the details of Lutheran Christianity, but your statement make sense to me.
The Christian life is not sinless although some Christian denominations maintain otherwise. If you are asking why that doesn't excuse indulging in sin, I would say that some people use it as an excuse. Indeed that is a temptation. Paul responded to accusations that "grace" can give license to the flesh in Romans 6. His response is that Christ made us for something more, to serve Christ. To indulge the flesh goes against what we were saved from.
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Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: sinner and saint? (Lutheran) - 7/1/2009 9:54:08 PM
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DoveMinistries
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Romans 6:1-2
6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
Romans 6:6-7
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
Romans 6:11
11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:18
18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
The New King James Version.
God Bless
R Dove
_____________________________
The Consummation of Love,
Love has been perfected amoung us in this; that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 1John 4:17
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RE: sinner and saint? (Lutheran) - 7/1/2009 10:02:16 PM
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DoveMinistries
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Just to let you know here is were alot get triped up. we are born into sin and we are also born into grace. Jesus Christ makes this way for us. So I have also included the verse that trips them.
Romans 5:8
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Note it says were.
The New King James Version.
God Bless
R Dove
_____________________________
The Consummation of Love,
Love has been perfected amoung us in this; that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 1John 4:17
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RE: sinner and saint? (Lutheran) - 7/2/2009 1:15:27 PM
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rcjames
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So the Lutherans have gone seeker friendly huh," Come with us and you can sin all the way to Heaven".
Come quickly Lord Jesus.
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: sinner and saint? (Lutheran) - 7/2/2009 2:54:57 PM
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Eutychus
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Bearing false witness against a whole denomination and its intentions and motives is, IMO, sin.
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RE: sinner and saint? (Lutheran) - 7/2/2009 9:30:36 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
So the Lutherans have gone seeker friendly huh," Come with us and you can sin all the way to Heaven".
Come quickly Lord Jesus.
Thanks
RC
RC,
Did you see anything in the OP that indicated that those Lutherans are excusing sin? I have heard people claim to have ceased sinning. I have never met anyone who actually has.
If I don't know how true it is nor how accurate my assessment is, I would be afraid that making a snap judgment and statement like that would be tantamount to gossip.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 7/2/2009 9:50:22 PM >
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: sinner and saint? (Lutheran) - 7/2/2009 10:09:16 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
Bearing false witness against a whole denomination and its intentions and motives is, IMO, sin.
Good point. I suppose RC thinks Paul was seeker friendly.
"Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners"---and I am the worst of them. (1 Tim. 1:15)
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: sinner and saint? (Lutheran) - 7/2/2009 10:39:03 PM
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DoveMinistries
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quote:
RC,
Did you see anything in the OP that indicated that those Lutherans are excusing sin?
quote:
I know Lutheran tradition holds that believers are both sinner and saint,
I believe this is what RC is refering to. Which is not in line with what scripture say's about sin. Theology has twisted what scripture say's about this.
To name a few which is in:
Romans 6:1-2
6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
Romans 6:6-7
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
Romans 6:11
11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:18
18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
Romans 5:8
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Note it says were.
The New King James Version.
quote:
I have heard people claim to have ceased sinning. I have never met anyone who actually has.
I'll ask you this. How many sins does it take to go to hell?
God will not judge by our standards, but by His. If you have not met anyone that is not sining, then maybe your in the wrong place. No disrespect intended, but only that you see the truth. Read the scripture I have posted, check it.
Scripture say's:
2 Corinthians 6:14-15
Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers, For what fellowship has rightouesness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with a unbeliever? 17 and 18 go on to separate ourself from sin.
God Bless
R Dove
_____________________________
The Consummation of Love,
Love has been perfected amoung us in this; that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 1John 4:17
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RE: sinner and saint? (Lutheran) - 7/3/2009 8:14:02 AM
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Qtman
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All of those verses are great but it would take a word smith to make them back up the point. Yes we are free from the slavery of sin. Jesus's death done that. But it is talking about the "original sin" I put that in quotes because I don't like the term but could not think of a better way to say it. Inother words, Jesus came and died so that we could be free from the fallen state of man. Nowhere in the Bible does it teach we are sinless. We are covered by the blood of the Lamb of Life but we are not sinless. Once we are saved all of our sins are cast away. That is the sins we committed before we were saved. If we continue to commit sin, and we will although maybe not intentionally, we must seek forgiveness. And yes I do believe we will be judged for the sins we have not repented.
We are free FROM sin. Not Free OF sin.
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Aufmerksamkeit: Es ist verboten, damit Qtman mit stummen Köpfen spricht.
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RE: sinner and saint? (Lutheran) - 7/3/2009 9:22:38 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 7237
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Did you see anything in the OP that indicated that those Lutherans are excusing sin? I have heard people claim to have ceased sinning. I have never met anyone who actually has.
In the OP it says;
quote:
I find it defeating to tell someone they are both sinner and saint, for on the surface it seems to allow one to have their cake and eat it too because only God can continue to free someone
It is not only defeating to tell someone they are both sinner and Saint; it is unscriptural.
Scritpure always refers to Believers (Christians, those indwelt by the Holy Spirit) as Saints, never as sinners.
So if indicating to them that they are both is not easy believerism, and seeker friendly, then there ain't a quarter horse in Oklahoma.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: sinner and saint? (Lutheran) - 7/3/2009 10:51:22 AM
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x_SoliDeoGloria_x
Posts: 110
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
So the Lutherans have gone seeker friendly huh," Come with us and you can sin all the way to Heaven".
Come quickly Lord Jesus.
Thanks
RC
RC,
Before you make derogatory statements about theological positions that differ from yours, and about which you apparently have no understanding, perhaps you should take the time and effort to look into what theologians have actually said. Spend some time reading what Luther wrote about sin and grace, about justification and sanctification, and then come back and tell us why he was wrong. Making flippant comments about others without making any effort to understand their point of view serves no useful purpose.
_____________________________
"Not by work going before grace shall I deserve grace, nor by my work following grace shall I deserve eternal life; but to him that believes, sin is pardoned and righteousness imputed." -- Martin Luther
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RE: sinner and saint? (Lutheran) - 7/3/2009 11:00:30 AM
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rcjames
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: x_SoliDeoGloria_x
RC,
Before you make derogatory statements about theological positions that differ from yours, and about which you apparently have no understanding, perhaps you should take the time and effort to look into what theologians have actually said. Spend some time reading what Luther wrote about sin and grace, about justification and sanctification, and then come back and tell us why he was wrong. Making flippant comments about others without making any effort to understand their point of view serves no useful purpose.
Please read my post 12
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: sinner and saint? (Lutheran) - 7/3/2009 11:08:40 AM
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doinkdom
Posts: 5928
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I was brought up as a child in the LCMS, confirmed and stayed until I was in my 20's.
The Lutheran church does not condone sin or give license to it. In fact, they take it very seriously.
We are not saved from sinning, we are saved from God's wrath and through walking out our sanctification, we learn self-control in areas of temptation to flee from sin - we learn to drink from the new well. We grow as disciples, daily confessing and receiving repentence.
_____________________________
"Pagans struggle with the divinity of Jesus Christ.
Bible believing Christians struggle with the
humanity of Jesus Christ."
~Dr. Steve Brown
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RE: sinner and saint? (Lutheran) - 7/3/2009 12:48:47 PM
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DoveMinistries
Posts: 334
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quote:
Theology has twisted what scripture say's about this.
Again, I will take what scripture say's any day over what man has to say. For the Bible say's do not trust in man. But That the the Holy Spirit will teach you in all things. Theology is not absolute authory, and some of you take it as the Gospel, and have forgoten the true meaning for it.
Theology is the study and commentary on the existence and attributes of God or gods, and of how God or those gods relate to the world and, especially, to human existence and religious thought; more generally, it is the study of religious faith, practice, and experience, or of spirituality. It is sometimes contrasted with religious studies: theology is understood as the study of religion from an internal perspective (e.g., a perspective of commitment to that religion), and religious studies as the study of religion from an external (e.g., a secular) perspective.
Theologians use various forms of analysis and argument (philosophical, ethnographic, historical, spiritual and others) to help understand, explain, test, critique, defend or promote any of myriad religious topics. It might be undertaken to help the theologian.
Now, I understand
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
False and True Teaching
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
Wow, anyone need a word smith? He who has a ear, let him hear.
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Get out of the boat!
May God Bless you
R Dove
< Message edited by DoveMinistries -- 7/3/2009 1:49:13 PM >
_____________________________
The Consummation of Love,
Love has been perfected amoung us in this; that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 1John 4:17
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RE: sinner and saint? (Lutheran) - 7/6/2009 4:52:55 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1876
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Did you see anything in the OP that indicated that those Lutherans are excusing sin? I have heard people claim to have ceased sinning. I have never met anyone who actually has.
In the OP it says;
quote:
I find it defeating to tell someone they are both sinner and saint, for on the surface it seems to allow one to have their cake and eat it too because only God can continue to free someone
It is not only defeating to tell someone they are both sinner and Saint; it is unscriptural.
Scritpure always refers to Believers (Christians, those indwelt by the Holy Spirit) as Saints, never as sinners.
So if indicating to them that they are both is not easy believerism, and seeker friendly, then there ain't a quarter horse in Oklahoma.
Thanks
RC
RC,
You only have the OP's interpretation. They didn't give any elaboration. If you have a source by the Lutherans in question that verifies their interpretation, you should provide. Until then, you are rumor mongering, my friend.
Generally speaking, it is not an appropriate evangelical Lutheran's position to excuse sin. RC, if people accepted every bad rumor about you, would you think that is gossip or truth?
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: sinner and saint? (Lutheran) - 7/6/2009 7:11:53 PM
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DoveMinistries
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OP, Which I believe is what RC is responding to;
quote:
Hi, hoping not to stir a hotbed of controversy but if I do please excuse or move me on. I know Lutheran tradition holds that believers are both sinner and saint, and that God is the only one who can continue to affect salvation in one's life. How does this dynamic encourage one to often present them selves to the LORD as a living sacrifice set apart for his service, Romans 12:1, for example. If obeying God-given principles for life is seen as "death" is a sense of covenant between God and Believer absent from this perspective? I find it defeating to tell someone they are both sinner and saint, for on the surface it seems to allow one to have their cake and eat it too because only God can continue to free someone. Perhaps I am seeing sin as an internal disease and my understanding is one can deter the terminality of most diseases though not totally eliminate it. What is sin to a Lutheran? Again not trying to stir up but get a better handle on this perspective. I consider myself an ex-Lutheran ideologically for personal reasons. Thanks. (Drussell52)
God Bless
R Dove
_____________________________
The Consummation of Love,
Love has been perfected amoung us in this; that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 1John 4:17
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RE: sinner and saint? (Lutheran) - 7/6/2009 9:29:04 PM
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x_SoliDeoGloria_x
Posts: 110
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DoveMinistries
OP, Which I believe is what RC is responding to;
quote:
Hi, hoping not to stir a hotbed of controversy but if I do please excuse or move me on. I know Lutheran tradition holds that believers are both sinner and saint, and that God is the only one who can continue to affect salvation in one's life. How does this dynamic encourage one to often present them selves to the LORD as a living sacrifice set apart for his service, Romans 12:1, for example. If obeying God-given principles for life is seen as "death" is a sense of covenant between God and Believer absent from this perspective? I find it defeating to tell someone they are both sinner and saint, for on the surface it seems to allow one to have their cake and eat it too because only God can continue to free someone. Perhaps I am seeing sin as an internal disease and my understanding is one can deter the terminality of most diseases though not totally eliminate it. What is sin to a Lutheran? Again not trying to stir up but get a better handle on this perspective. I consider myself an ex-Lutheran ideologically for personal reasons. Thanks. (Drussell52)
God Bless
R Dove
The Latin is simul justus et peccator, which means simultaneously righteous, or justified, and sinner. If you do not accept this, then do you believe the alternative, that every time a Christian sins he loses his salvation and has to "get saved" all over again? I don't see any scriptural basis for that position.
_____________________________
"Not by work going before grace shall I deserve grace, nor by my work following grace shall I deserve eternal life; but to him that believes, sin is pardoned and righteousness imputed." -- Martin Luther
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RE: sinner and saint? (Lutheran) - 7/6/2009 10:40:48 PM
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DoveMinistries
Posts: 334
Joined: 6/8/2009
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I have no idea what your talking about. That was the OP. maybe you should address the poster.
But to answer your question if a person sin's again they just have to say forgive me to and go on. To not ask to be forgiven is to have your sin remain on you. Their is scripture for that.
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit. (sin is bad fruit)
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
God Bless
R Dove
_____________________________
The Consummation of Love,
Love has been perfected amoung us in this; that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 1John 4:17
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RE: sinner and saint? (Lutheran) - 7/7/2009 9:21:24 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 7237
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
RC,
You only have the OP's interpretation. They didn't give any elaboration. If you have a source by the Lutherans in question that verifies their interpretation, you should provide. Until then, you are rumor mongering, my friend.
Generally speaking, it is not an appropriate evangelical Lutheran's position to excuse sin. RC, if people accepted every bad rumor about you, would you think that is gossip or truth?
And I was commenting on the OP.
If you want to be an apologist for the Lutherns then have at it, as I said I was using only the OP for my comment and was very clear about that.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: sinner and saint? (Lutheran) - 7/13/2009 3:50:54 AM
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Lea_3
Posts: 287
Joined: 3/7/2006
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I am having a hard time understanding where the OP is coming from because I go to a conservative Lutheran church and nowhere I have ever seen that Lutherans say that you can stop sinning or that you can "sin all the way to heaven." The pastors at my church admit openly and teach that we are all sinners all the time and the only one who can redeem us is God. As one poster said, we are free from sin, but not of it. I think sometimes people get so wrapped up in ideology and doctrine that they forget about God.
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RE: sinner and saint? (Lutheran) - 7/13/2009 10:24:11 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 3904
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
It is not only defeating to tell someone they are both sinner and Saint; it is unscriptural.
Scritpure always refers to Believers (Christians, those indwelt by the Holy Spirit) as Saints, never as sinners.
So if indicating to them that they are both is not easy believerism, and seeker friendly, then there ain't a quarter horse in Oklahoma. You are using a different definition of "sinner." That would be anyone who has ever committed a sin.
I also think your definition of sin and that of the Lutherans are different, them taking sin to be more than just willful intentional disobedience.
_____________________________
Avatar is my son Caleb and Leah on their wedding 12/20/09
We are now empty nesters.......
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
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RE: sinner and saint? (Lutheran) - 7/13/2009 10:35:42 AM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6711
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
I also think your definition of sin and that of the Lutherans are different, them taking sin to be more than just willful intentional disobedience.
The OT seems to support that view and called them sins of ignorance.
Example from Hebrews 9:7 regarding OT practices:
"but into the second, only the high priest enters once a year, not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the sins of the people committed in ignorance."
See also, Leviticus 4, Leviticus 5, and Numbers 15.
It would seem that God still considers some actions to be sin even if the person doing it does not willfully disobey. I'm not aware of God's requirements for personal holiness changing.
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RE: sinner and saint? (Lutheran) - 7/13/2009 9:49:25 PM
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x_SoliDeoGloria_x
Posts: 110
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quote:
I also think your definition of sin and that of the Lutherans are different, them taking sin to be more than just willful intentional disobedience.
That is a good point. I think that Lutherans would tend to agree that anything that falls short of loving God with every ounce of our being at every moment is a sin, and any failure to literally love every neighbor as ourselves is a sin. For example, one of the sins that Luther often found himself guilty of commiting was the sin of impatience. If we truly love God with all our being, we will have complete trust that His timing is best, and we will see impatience as a sin against God.
_____________________________
"Not by work going before grace shall I deserve grace, nor by my work following grace shall I deserve eternal life; but to him that believes, sin is pardoned and righteousness imputed." -- Martin Luther
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