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RE: Adam and Eve's skin - 10/15/2009 5:28:36 AM
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rawr.ben
Posts: 2191
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
I showed that skin served far more purpose than just a protective covering. I would think that Adam and Eve would have a need for being able to feel things. Or, in God's perfect plan, man had no nerve endings? No way to really regulate body temperature. No ability to sweat?
That's my point-in a perfect place, why would that have been necessary?
Where does Scripture say that God completely re-designed humans after the fall?
You don't think the ability to touch and feel is necessary? Then I guess God created them without the ability to feel pleasure, as well?
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I wouldn't go so far as to call them superheroes. However, what gives us the idea or notion that there was any sort of pain in the garden?
I wasn't even talking about pain. But if you have no skin, you have tendons, nerves, and veins exposed. What happens if one gets snagged on something? What if Adam tripped? Or did they have perfect balance in Eden? Nothing was ever under their feet?
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I think we are assuming that the garden was full of and like the earthly realm now.
Well, all the fruits and vegetations of the earth were created, along with the animals, before the fall. How do you suppose it was different? Was there not things like temperature?
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It would appear that the characteristics of the garden are much more in line with a heavenaly comparison rather than a earthly one.
Seems to me that people have skin in heaven.
It seems to me that skin was part of God's design for humans, not something he threw together after man took a bite of the fruit from the tree.
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rawr.ben
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RE: Adam and Eve's skin - 10/15/2009 5:30:48 AM
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ManimalX
Posts: 2620
Joined: 10/25/2005
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Why do you think skin cells could not "die" before the fall?!? Skin cells are tiny molecular machines that do a job and the cease to function as they are replaced by other tiny molecular machines. As a matter of fact, nearly ALL cells do the same thing.
The problem these days is that cells can only replicate themselves so many times before they cease to do so. It is reasonable to think that in the case of pre-Fall Adam and Eve, the replication of cells was perpetual and they never would have stopped replicating.
If no skin cells "died" before the fall because there was "no death", then what about the fruits and vegetables that Adam and Eve had to eat? They "died" in the exact same way a skin cell "dies" when they were picked, eaten, digested, and excreted. Of course, the answer is that fruit and vegetables don't fit the definition of "life" in the same way as a human being does. But, neither do skin cells. Ideally and in a non-corrupted environment, human cells of all types continue to replicate themselves infinitely while suffering no successive degradation or "entropy" of any kind. After the Fall that safeguard was removed, which changed humans from infinitely reproducing life-forms into creatures with an expiration date.
I think you need to reexamine your concept of "no death" before the fall!
_____________________________
"The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.'" - Psalms 14:1
"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ" - 2 Cor 10:5
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RE: Adam and Eve's skin - 10/15/2009 5:40:47 AM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1448
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
Where does Scripture say that God completely re-designed humans after the fall?
It doesn't say those words specifically...
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."
Gen 3:16 To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you."
Gen 3:17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life.
Gen 3:18 "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field;
Gen 3:19 By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."
See, it's a huge difference before the sin.
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Then I guess God created them without the ability to feel pleasure, as well?
I think that is all they were capable of feeling.
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I wasn't even talking about pain. But if you have no skin, you have tendons, nerves, and veins exposed. What happens if one gets snagged on something? What if Adam tripped? Or did they have perfect balance in Eden? Nothing was ever under their feet?
I think and it is totally my opinion and I could be completely wrong.....that they were created in a soul like state.
But I honestly don't know how "flesh of my flesh, bone of my bone" figures into that....I'm only searching and thinking about it.
Many thoughts on here have helped me.
I sure hope my posts are not construed as being combative or authoritarian!
quote:
Seems to me that people have skin in heaven.
Why do you say that? Our physical bodies die, they don't go with us. Only our souls go to heaven or hell.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Adam and Eve's skin - 10/15/2009 5:45:00 AM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1448
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
The problem these days is that cells can only replicate themselves so many times before they cease to do so. It is reasonable to think that in the case of pre-Fall Adam and Eve, the replication of cells was perpetual and they never would have stopped replicating.
That's a good point I hadn't thought about.
I would assume that the fruit wouldn't die either and that only what would be required to sustain them would be produced by the trees and plants.
Concept of no death before the fall.....where does death factor into the eternal?
Interesting thought and I certainly will consider it. Do you have more to say on that-where do I begin looking for that?
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Adam and Eve's skin - 10/15/2009 6:07:02 AM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1448
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
Seems to me that people have skin in heaven.
You got me to thinking, so I looked.  This is what I found:
1Cr 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable {body,} it is raised an imperishable {body;}
1Cr 15:43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
1Cr 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual {body.}
1Cr 15:45 So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam {became} a life-giving spirit.
1Cr 15:47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.
1Cr 15:48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
1Cr 15:49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Cr 15:50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Adam and Eve's skin - 10/15/2009 7:41:34 AM
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ManimalX
Posts: 2620
Joined: 10/25/2005
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dd,
Very quickly, I think it is important that we weren't made to "go to heaven", we were made to inhabit the Earth! That humans who die get to abide in "paradise" or "Abraham's bosom" or "the place of the righteous dead" is only a temporary state of affairs. Our ultimate destination is to live as God originally intended: as physical inhabitants of a physical universe. Remember that the Bible has a lot to say about God renewing and restoring and glorifying all of creation, and that His ultimate dwelling will not be somewhere "out there" or "up in Heaven", but in the real, physical city of "New Jerusalem" on a renewed Earth.
There will be a physical resurrection at which time every person who ever lived will be given glorified bodies fit for either eternal life in the presence of God, or eternal separation from God in Hell. Remember, Jesus didn't resurrect into an incorporeal spirit: He was resurrected into a real, physical body, and even ascended into the heavens with it.
We are created in the image of God, but that obviously doesn't mean we are exactly like Him. God is Spirit, and He took on flesh to dwell among us in the person of His Son, Jesus. We were created to be spirits who have and are tied to physical bodies. It is a wonderful mystery, and I cannot WAIT to experience the abilities and functions of my redeemed, renewed, glorified body!
_____________________________
"The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.'" - Psalms 14:1
"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ" - 2 Cor 10:5
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RE: Adam and Eve's skin - 10/15/2009 7:44:26 AM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1448
Joined: 8/30/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
Very quickly, I think it is important that we weren't made to "go to heaven", we were made to inhabit the Earth! That humans who die get to abide in "paradise" or "Abraham's bosom" or "the place of the righteous dead" is only a temporary state of affairs. Our ultimate destination is to live as God originally intended: as physical inhabitants of a physical universe. Remember that the Bible has a lot to say about God renewing and restoring and glorifying all of creation, and that His ultimate dwelling will not be somewhere "out there" or "up in Heaven", but in the real, physical city of "New Jerusalem" on a renewed Earth.
There will be a physical resurrection at which time every person who ever lived will be given glorified bodies fit for either eternal life in the presence of God, or eternal separation from God in Hell. Remember, Jesus didn't resurrect into an incorporeal spirit: He was resurrected into a real, physical body, and even ascended into the heavens with it.
We are created in the image of God, but that obviously doesn't mean we are exactly like Him. God is Spirit, and He took on flesh to dwell among us in the person of His Son, Jesus. We were created to be spirits who have and are tied to physical bodies. It is a wonderful mystery, and I cannot WAIT to experience the abilities and functions of my redeemed, renewed, glorified body!
Now those are just really cool thoughts! Thank you-I will think deeper on them!
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Adam and Eve's skin - 10/15/2009 8:32:36 AM
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ManimalX
Posts: 2620
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
Very quickly, I think it is important that we weren't made to "go to heaven", we were made to inhabit the Earth! That humans who die get to abide in "paradise" or "Abraham's bosom" or "the place of the righteous dead" is only a temporary state of affairs. Our ultimate destination is to live as God originally intended: as physical inhabitants of a physical universe. Remember that the Bible has a lot to say about God renewing and restoring and glorifying all of creation, and that His ultimate dwelling will not be somewhere "out there" or "up in Heaven", but in the real, physical city of "New Jerusalem" on a renewed Earth.
There will be a physical resurrection at which time every person who ever lived will be given glorified bodies fit for either eternal life in the presence of God, or eternal separation from God in Hell. Remember, Jesus didn't resurrect into an incorporeal spirit: He was resurrected into a real, physical body, and even ascended into the heavens with it.
We are created in the image of God, but that obviously doesn't mean we are exactly like Him. God is Spirit, and He took on flesh to dwell among us in the person of His Son, Jesus. We were created to be spirits who have and are tied to physical bodies. It is a wonderful mystery, and I cannot WAIT to experience the abilities and functions of my redeemed, renewed, glorified body!
Now those are just really cool thoughts! Thank you-I will think deeper on them!
I really appreciate your openness, honesty, and desire to learn something new. May the Holy Spirit guide you in your "deeper thoughts", and guide you always deeper into His Word!
_____________________________
"The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.'" - Psalms 14:1
"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ" - 2 Cor 10:5
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RE: Adam and Eve's skin - 10/15/2009 8:33:28 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 3441
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
I'm not convinced that they looked like us. Why, in a perfect place would they need a covering for protection? What would they have been protected from?
DD,
It is important to remember that we are dealing with the construct phrase "כתנות עור/garments of skin" and not just the word skin; when word are in the Hebrew construct form they cannot stand alone. While the Hebrew word עור is used infrequently to refer to human skin, the Hebrew word כתנות is NEVER used to describe the skin on a living thing whether that is human or animal. כתנות is the word used to describe Joseph's coat in Ge. 37, the priest's garments in Ex. 28 and Lev. 8, Tamar's Cloths in 2 Samuel 13, etc..
Unless you can cite a reference that demonstrates that the word כתנות can ever be used to describe a body's "covering of skin" there really is no reason to continue down this rabbit trail.
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Adam and Eve's skin - 10/15/2009 12:41:39 PM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1448
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
DD,
It is important to remember that we are dealing with the construct phrase "כתנות עור/garments of skin" and not just the word skin; when word are in the Hebrew construct form they cannot stand alone. While the Hebrew word עור is used infrequently to refer to human skin, the Hebrew word כתנות is NEVER used to describe the skin on a living thing whether that is human or animal. כתנות is the word used to describe Joseph's coat in Ge. 37, the priest's garments in Ex. 28 and Lev. 8, Tamar's Cloths in 2 Samuel 13, etc..
Unless you can cite a reference that demonstrates that the word כתנות can ever be used to describe a body's "covering of skin" there really is no reason to continue down this rabbit trail.
Well, ok. Thank you for telling me about the constructs of the Hebrew language. Obviously I am not educated in Hebrew, so what you said, does make sense to me.
I don't mean to chase a rabbit trail. It was just something that pooped at me. I don't think it matters one iota in the grand scheme of things whether they had skin or not. It's just fascinating to me to explore!
I do appreciate all of ya'lls patience in my exploration. I still have a lot to think about because some extremely important statements have been made, very thought provoking as well. So, thank you again!
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Adam and Eve's skin - 10/15/2009 12:54:11 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 9165
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rawr.ben
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
And the Lord God made clothing from animal skins for Adam and his wife.
-Genesis 3:21 (New Living Translation)
Then the LORD God made clothes out of animal skins for the man and his wife.
-Genesis 3:21 (Contemporary English Version)
God made leather clothing for Adam and his wife and dressed them.
-Genesis 3:21 (The Message)
And Jehovah God doth make to the man and to his wife coats of skin, and doth clothe them.
-Genesis 3:21 (Young's Literal Translation)
For Adam also and for his wife the Lord God made long coats (tunics) of skins and clothed them.
-Genesis 3:21 (Amplified Bible)
Innocent blood was shed for their sin, just as it was for us on the cross.
Who said anything about the animals being killed for clothing being "innocent?"
I wasn't aware that we rated animals on scale of guilt-and-innocence.
Animals, apparently, are capable of sinning or being righteous.
What in the world are you talking about?
It is logical that the skins came from animals and that, of necessity, they were killed to obtain them and that the animals had not committed a sin that brought about their death but that Adam & Eve were the ones guilty of sin. Ipso presto, the innocent animal(s) suffered death due to man's sin.
The OT system involved that repeatedly and it foreshadowed Christ's death and atonement.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Adam and Eve's skin - 10/15/2009 2:30:43 PM
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rawr.ben
Posts: 2191
Joined: 5/16/2005
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In regards to why I said we had skin in heaven:
Jesus walked on earth in his resurrected body. He seemed to have skin.
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rawr.ben
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RE: Adam and Eve's skin - 10/15/2009 4:11:20 PM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1448
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
The seventh day adventists picture Adam and Eve when created a beings of LIGHT = glowing
LG
As interesting as that is, because I really did not know that, I'm SB!
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Adam and Eve's skin - 10/15/2009 4:28:55 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 3441
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
We need to be very careful and not read stuff into scripture that's just not there.
Agreed.
quote:
And stop thinking DD !!
When we stop thinking, the result usually is that we end up reading stuff into Scripture that's just not there. Remember God created our intellect and we really should be using it.
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Adam and Eve's skin - 10/15/2009 6:07:37 PM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 783
Joined: 1/15/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
I'm not convinced that they looked like us. Why, in a perfect place would they need a covering for protection? What would they have been protected from?
DD,
It is important to remember that we are dealing with the construct phrase "ëúðåú òåø/garments of skin" and not just the word skin; when word are in the Hebrew construct form they cannot stand alone. While the Hebrew word òåø is used infrequently to refer to human skin, the Hebrew word ëúðåú is NEVER used to describe the skin on a living thing whether that is human or animal. ëúðåú is the word used to describe Joseph's coat in Ge. 37, the priest's garments in Ex. 28 and Lev. 8, Tamar's Cloths in 2 Samuel 13, etc..
Unless you can cite a reference that demonstrates that the word ëúðåú can ever be used to describe a body's "covering of skin" there really is no reason to continue down this rabbit trail.
I greatly appreciate the breath of fresh air, breathed into what was a path way to silliness.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Adam and Eve's skin - 10/15/2009 6:42:24 PM
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stampinlady
Posts: 3121
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Northern IL
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quote:
When we stop thinking,
Maybe I should have said, 'over thinking.' I think DD knew what I meant.
_____________________________
Deb
There is no "cosmic dog whislte. It's gonna be loud folks !!!
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RE: Adam and Eve's skin - 10/15/2009 7:50:41 PM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1448
Joined: 8/30/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
God instructed our first parents in regard to the tree of knowledge, and they were fully informed relative to the fall of Satan, and the danger of listening to his suggestions. He did not deprive them of the power of eating the forbidden fruit. He left them as free moral agents to believe His word, obey His commandments, and live, or believe the tempter, disobey, and perish. They both ate, and the great wisdom they obtained was the knowledge of sin and a sense of guilt. The covering of light about them soon disappeared, and under a sense of guilt and loss of their divine covering, a shivering seized them, and they tried to cover their exposed forms.
I would be happy to agree with that IF scripture said those exact same things, which it does not.
BTW, I didn't say anything about them being light creatures. 
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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