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Did it rain before Noah and the flood? - 10/28/2009 10:56:18 PM
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Fortydays
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I can't find anything on this, except that it didn't rain till after Adam and Eve. Can anyone help me on this. I told someone I didn't think it rained till the flood and now im being called out on this.
I hope there is proof out there or a verse that talks about it not raining before the flood.
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RE: Did it rain before Noah and the flood? - 10/29/2009 8:57:27 AM
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WildByNature
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Gen 2:5-6
before any plant of the field was in the earth and before any herb of the field had grown. For the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to till the ground; but a mist went up from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground.
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RE: Did it rain before Noah and the flood? - 10/29/2009 10:06:55 PM
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agapeflight
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fortydays
I can't find anything on this, except that it didn't rain till after Adam and Eve. Can anyone help me on this. I told someone I didn't think it rained till the flood and now im being called out on this.
I hope there is proof out there or a verse that talks about it not raining before the flood.
Gen 2:5-6 says that when God created Man from the dust it had not rained but old earthers would contend that the earth was once nothing but a giant dirt ball and that there probably was a mist, it does not mean that it never rained up until Noah's time. In fact stretching this verse out of it's context is just one of the dozens of such distortions that go into most of the fundamentalist arguments for a young earth. The fact is we almost always get ourselves in trouble when we start inductive study and expecially when we start inferring too deeply. There is no scriptural basis beyond assuming that the state of the earth spoken of in Gen 2:5-6 conitnued until Noah. The truth is we simply do not know and it is not necessary for faith in Jesus.
May God bless you in the knowledge of Him.
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RE: Did it rain before Noah and the flood? - 10/30/2009 11:05:34 PM
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Fortydays
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What about NO Rainbow till after the Flood? That kinda feeds the thought of no rain till the flood.
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RE: Did it rain before Noah and the flood? - 10/31/2009 12:28:48 AM
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tsnody2001
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You don't necessarily need rain to have a rainbow. So there could have been rainbows before the flood, even if it had not rained.
_____________________________
Until He Returns (Rev. 2:17),
Travis
During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. ~George Orwell
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RE: Did it rain before Noah and the flood? - 10/31/2009 10:03:32 PM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tsnody2001
You don't necessarily need rain to have a rainbow. So there could have been rainbows before the flood, even if it had not rained. Either way, there was no rainbow before the Flood.
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St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Did it rain before Noah and the flood? - 1/6/2010 11:24:52 PM
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Markie51
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Dear Fourtydays,
No! According to Biblical accounts and scholarly opinions, no rain fell upon the earth prior to the Great Deluge of Noah’s time.
In its brief account of creation the Bible says regarding the forming of earth’s atmosphere: “And God went on to say: ‘Let an expanse come to be in between the waters and let a dividing occur between the waters and the waters.’ Then God proceeded to make the expanse and to make a division between the waters that should be beneath the expanse and the waters that should be above the expanse.”-Genesis 1:6, 7.
The waters “beneath” the atmospheric “expanse” were the waters on the surface of the earth. Whereas, “the waters…above the expanse” were vast quantities of moisture suspended high above the earth, evidently in the form of a heavy vapor. These waters surrounded our earth in its earlier history.
Regarding the possibility of the existence of such suspended waters, the book The Genesis Flood (1961), by John C. Whitcomb, Jr., and Henry M. Morris, observes: “The region above about 80 miles is very hot, over 100° F and possibly rising to 3000° F, and is in fact called the thermosphere for this reason. High temperature, of course, is the chief requisite for retaining a large quantity of water vapor. Furthermore, it is known that water vapor is substantially lighter than air and most of the other gases making up the atmosphere. There is thus nothing physically impossible about the concept of a vast thermal vapor blanket once existing in the upper atmosphere.”
However, the exact height and the way in which the waters were held above the earth cannot be known by us with certainty. But we do know that it was to these suspended waters that the Christian apostle Peter referred when writing under God’s inspiration about the Noachian flood. He explains that there was “an earth standing compactly out of water and in the midst of water,” and that “by those means the world of that time suffered destruction when it was deluged with water.”-2 Peter 3:5, 6.
The earth in the pre-Flood days was “out of water” in the sense that the ground on which men lived and walked stood above the waters of the seas and rivers. Yet, it was “in the midst of water,” since a vast quantity of it surrounded the earth, suspended far above its surface.
It can be debated that, “such a canopy of water suspended above the earth would greatly affect earth’s climate.”
This certainly would be true. The light and heat rays from the sun would be diffused by the vapor canopy, while this vast canopy would prevent heat from escaping. Such a “greenhouse effect” would thus produce a milder, more uniform climate earth wide. Biologist Harold K. Blum explained this effect of water vapor upon climate, saying: “Just as the warm glass of the greenhouse tends to raise the temperature of the interior, the water vapor tends to raise that of the earth’s surface below it. This surface, or any object on it, is constantly exchanging radiation with the water vapor in the atmosphere, so the temperature of the surface is closely dependent upon the amount and temperature of this vapor.”
That earth’s climate was uniformly warm at one time is commonly recognized. In an article concerning dinosaurs, Scientific Monthly of August 1949 observed: “In those days the earth had a tropical or sub-tropical climate over much of its land surface, and in the widespread tropical lands there was an abundance of lush vegetation. The land was low and there were no high mountains forming physical or climatic barriers.”
Of the now-frigid Antarctic continent the French magazine Science et Vie, in its July 1966 issue, said: “This inhuman land, this desert of ice, was once a green land where streams flowed among flowers, where birds sang in the trees.”
According to this source, at least sixty-one kinds of plants then grew in Antarctica.
How consistent, therefore, is the Bible’s explanation that there was a suspended mass of water above the earth in man’s early history. This water vapor would have created the uniformly warm climate that is known to have once existed earth wide. And it was the unleashing of this tremendous reservoir of water, and not simply a severe rainfall, that caused the global deluge. Note how the Bible shows this in its description of the Flood: “All the springs of the vast watery deep were broken open and the floodgates of the heavens were opened. And the downpour upon the earth went on for forty days and forty nights.”-Genesis 7:11, 12.
Markie51,
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RE: Did it rain before Noah and the flood? - 1/7/2010 1:08:41 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fortydays
What about NO Rainbow till after the Flood? That kinda feeds the thought of no rain till the flood.
Why do you think that there was no rainbow until the flood?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Did it rain before Noah and the flood? - 1/7/2010 6:08:52 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
quote:
ORIGINAL: tsnody2001
You don't necessarily need rain to have a rainbow. So there could have been rainbows before the flood, even if it had not rained.
Either way, there was no rainbow before the Flood.
I don't think it means there was no rainbow. All we know is that the rainbow is now given as a sign.
quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
Why would God have given it as sign of promise if it was just a common occurrence already? That would kind of make the "sign" pretty weak and insignificant if you'll pardon the pun
I believe the Bible when it says there had been no rain.
The same scripture that says there was no rain ALSO says there was no man to till the earth. Do you also believe there was no man until Noah. Obviously you don't. The only thing I think we can get from that is that there was no rain when there was no man.
quote:
That would kind of make the "sign" pretty weak and insignificant...
Some signs in the Bible were weak and insignificant. They did not need to be miraculous. The angels told the shepherds that they would find a baby wrapped in swaddling clothes. There was nothing miraculous about a baby wrapped up in clothes and lying in a feeding trough. It was special because it was specific, not because it was powerful and/or miraculous.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 1/7/2010 6:25:40 PM >
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Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Did it rain before Noah and the flood? - 1/7/2010 6:43:41 PM
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tsnody2001
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Walterquez,
quote:
Either way, there was no rainbow before the Flood.
Where in Scripture does it say there was no rainbow before the Flood? It was given as a sign, but that does not mean there never was one before then.
_____________________________
Until He Returns (Rev. 2:17),
Travis
During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. ~George Orwell
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RE: Did it rain before Noah and the flood? - 1/7/2010 6:57:28 PM
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tsnody2001
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I agree with you, GrahamCracker. Over and over again God said, "You will know that I am God when such and such happens, or this or that happens" (obviously paraphrasing, lol). This in no way means that these things had to be miraculous, albeit some of them were. Technically, the whole existence of the universe is a miracle.
_____________________________
Until He Returns (Rev. 2:17),
Travis
During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. ~George Orwell
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RE: Did it rain before Noah and the flood? - 1/7/2010 7:09:15 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1876
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tsnody2001
I agree with you, GrahamCracker. Over and over again God said, "You will know that I am God when such and such happens, or this or that happens" (obviously paraphrasing, lol). This in no way means that these things had to be miraculous, albeit some of them were. Technically, the whole existence of the universe is a miracle.
I ran across the idea a year or two ago when I was researching the NT word for miracle. If I am not mistaken, the Greek word translated miracle is sometimes translated as sign. And it messed up my argument when I observed that some of those events were simply not distinguished by things that transcended natural law. It gradually began to dawn on me that a sign was a link between an event (either expected or unexpected) and the unlikely prediction of the same event. IOW, if someone tells you that you will fall and break your leg at 2:00 forty days from now, it might give you pause to believe that person had the ability to predict unlikely events. If they did similar things repeatedly, you would probably attribute that to super-naturalism, aka prophecy.
We had "signs and wonders" in the Bible, which makes me think that some things transcended natural law and some things didn't.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Did it rain before Noah and the flood? - 1/7/2010 10:19:53 PM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tsnody2001
Walterquez,quote:
Either way, there was no rainbow before the Flood. Where in Scripture does it say there was no rainbow before the Flood? It was given as a sign, but that does not mean there never was one before then. How can it be a sign if it was a common occurrence before the flood? Also, if the rainbow is a sign of no flood, then there could not be one before the flood.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Did it rain before Noah and the flood? - 1/7/2010 10:21:54 PM
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walterquez
Posts: 1913
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjamesquote:
ORIGINAL: Fortydays
What about NO Rainbow till after the Flood? That kinda feeds the thought of no rain till the flood. Why do you think that there was no rainbow until the flood?
Thanks
RC Why do you think there was rain before the flood?
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Did it rain before Noah and the flood? - 1/8/2010 11:19:11 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
Why do you think there was rain before the flood?
(Gen 2:5) And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
(Gen 2:6) But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Did it rain before Noah and the flood? - 1/8/2010 10:19:59 PM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjamesquote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
Why do you think there was rain before the flood? (Gen 2:5) And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
(Gen 2:6) But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
Thanks
RC
It says God had "not" caused it to rain. And only a midst from the earth watered the ground; consequently, this is not rain.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Did it rain before Noah and the flood? - 1/9/2010 10:22:05 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjamesquote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
Why do you think there was rain before the flood? (Gen 2:5) And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
(Gen 2:6) But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
Thanks
RC
It says God had "not" caused it to rain. And only a midst from the earth watered the ground; consequently, this is not rain.
Nit picking, it must have been a whale of a mist to water the whole of the face of the earth, anyway one looks at it that is rain. Moisture falling from the sky and watering the earth, sounds like rain to me.
.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Did it rain before Noah and the flood? - 1/9/2010 10:50:14 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1876
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From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
It says God had "not" caused it to rain. And only a midst from the earth watered the ground; consequently, this is not rain.
Would you, in like manner, concede that before the flood there was no man to till the earth?
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Did it rain before Noah and the flood? - 1/9/2010 1:55:34 PM
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tsnody2001
Posts: 1001
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Walterquez,
quote:
Also, if the rainbow is a sign of no flood, then there could not be one before the flood.
How can you prove this? Not with Scripture. God gave Noah the rainbow as a sign so that He would remember frequently that He would never again destroy the earth in like manner. Why would God use such a sign? Could it be because He saw rainbows all the time? I don't know, and neither do you.
Genesis 9:13-17 "I set My rainbow in the cloud, and it shall be for the sign of the covenant between Me and the earth. It shall be, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the rainbow shall be seen in the cloud; and I will remember My covenant which is between Me and you and every living creature of all flesh; the waters shall never again become a flood to destroy all flesh. The rainbow shall be in the cloud, and I will look on it to remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth." And God said to Noah, "This is the sign of the covenant which I have established between Me and all flesh that is on the earth."
In reality, this whole thread is pointless.
_____________________________
Until He Returns (Rev. 2:17),
Travis
During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. ~George Orwell
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RE: Did it rain before Noah and the flood? - 1/10/2010 3:27:10 PM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCrackerquote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
It says God had "not" caused it to rain. And only a midst from the earth watered the ground; consequently, this is not rain. Would you, in like manner, concede that before the flood there was no man to till the earth? Sure, if this is what it says.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Did it rain before Noah and the flood? - 1/10/2010 3:31:38 PM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Nit picking, it must have been a whale of a mist to water the whole of the face of the earth, anyway one looks at it that is rain. Moisture falling from the sky and watering the earth, sounds like rain to me. It says the midst came from the earth, not from above descending, like rain does. I don't know what it is, but it sounds like a fog; consequently, it would be nit picking if one argues the fog is a cloud, and the plants getting wet from it is somehow called raining.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Did it rain before Noah and the flood? - 1/10/2010 3:45:34 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 7239
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Nit picking, it must have been a whale of a mist to water the whole of the face of the earth, anyway one looks at it that is rain. Moisture falling from the sky and watering the earth, sounds like rain to me. It says the midst came from the earth, not from above descending, like rain does. I don't know what it is, but it sounds like a fog; consequently, it would be nit picking if one argues the fog is a cloud, and the plants getting wet from it is somehow called raining.
Rain comes from moisture (mist) in the air, the moisture/mist in the air comes from the moisture in/pn theground and water surface on the earth, the moinstue in/on the ground and the water surface comes from the rain, and around and around it goes.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Did it rain before Noah and the flood? - 1/10/2010 3:46:10 PM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tsnody2001
Walterquez,
quote:
Also, if the rainbow is a sign of no flood, then there could not be one before the flood. How can you prove this? Not with Scripture. As the Holy Scripture says, let's reason; so, let's reason. A sign is an unusual occurrence. If there was no rainbow before, it would be an unusual occurrence, but not so if it was common.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Did it rain before Noah and the flood? - 1/10/2010 6:42:27 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
quote:
ORIGINAL: tsnody2001
Walterquez,
quote:
Also, if the rainbow is a sign of no flood, then there could not be one before the flood. How can you prove this? Not with Scripture. As the Holy Scripture says, let's reason; so, let's reason. A sign is an unusual occurrence. If there was no rainbow before, it would be an unusual occurrence, but not so if it was common.
Walter,
In support of your position, one only has to read Scripture carefully to note that (a) there was no rain before the flood (Gen. 2:5,6) and that (b) the rainbow was indeed a sign or a token of God's covenant with Noah (and by extension mankind and all creatures on earth) when God said, "This is the TOKEN OF THE COVENANT which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations" (Gen. 9:12).
The Hebrew word translated as "token" is owth which can mean signal, evidence, mark, miracle, sign or token.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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