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Could've God done this?
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| No - it is not conceivable to believe that. |
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Total Votes : 12
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(last vote on : 8/10/2010 10:22:50 PM)
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Could've God done this? - 7/30/2010 6:40:09 AM
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19ramman85
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A while ago, I was watching a tv show in regards to the creation of the solar systems. Which got me to thinking; couldn't God have created everything so spectacularly fast, in our eyes - and so fast even, that even with the bestest scientific equipment around, to us the universe only - "APPEARS", to be 4 - 10 billion yrs old, yet is only a fraction of that in actuality?
Especially considering that, according to most Jewish scholars - the word used to describe - "DAY", in the old Hebrew - has at least three different definitions. And that the old Hebrew had no concept of the higher numbers; million, billion, trillion, etc.
Personally - I have no problem with that concept.
What do you think?
-charles
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RE: Could've God done this? - 7/30/2010 9:04:36 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Personally - I have no problem with that concept. Personally - I find it totally worthless to conjecture about what God could have done when we have His own Eyewitness Account of what He actually did! Genesis 1 clearly states that God created the universe and all therein in six serial cycles of time defined by evening/morning the first through sixth cycle. I personally see absolutely no way to read the plain meaning of the text and derive billions of years from this historical narrative account. How others may interpret God's Word is between them and Him.
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couldn't God have created everything so spectacularly fast, in our eyes - and so fast even, that even with the bestest scientific equipment around, to us the universe only - "APPEARS", to be 4 - 10 billion yrs old, yet is only a fraction of that in actuality? There are many reasonable explanations for the so-called "appearance of age" seen in the universe today. How old did Adam and Eve "appear" on the seventh day when they were one day old? Probably 25 years old or so and if you do the math, you get the same order of magnitude greater difference for their apparent age as you get for the universe's apparent age today. Interesting...
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Especially considering that, according to most Jewish scholars - the word used to describe - "DAY", in the old Hebrew - has at least three different definitions. And that the old Hebrew had no concept of the higher numbers; million, billion, trillion, etc. The Hebrew word yom has only one correct meaning in context. Given how carefully God defined yom in context of Genesis 1, I fail to see how six serial cycles of evening/morning could possibly mean innumerable eons of time. But, that's just me...
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RE: Could've God done this? - 7/30/2010 9:17:15 AM
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WormHeart
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Sure - an almighty God could have created anything in any way we can imagine.
Stephen Hawkings, who is a major name in physics, speaks openly about that option. That science will never be able to disprove that the entore universe was created "in motion" by God. Or that it was created last tuesday, complete with peoples fake memories of lives.
But his point is, it is not terrible useful as a theory, because it doesn't predict anything or tell us anything about how it all works.
WormHeart
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RE: Could've God done this? - 7/30/2010 9:27:04 AM
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drmark
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quote:
But his point is, it is not terrible useful as a theory, because it doesn't predict anything or tell us anything about how it all works. WH, don't you think it would be very important to understand how the universe works if one could demonstrate that God created the entire universe?
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RE: Could've God done this? - 7/30/2010 9:37:48 AM
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WormHeart
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
But his point is, it is not terrible useful as a theory, because it doesn't predict anything or tell us anything about how it all works. WH, don't you think it would be very important to understand how the universe works if one could demonstrate that God created the entire universe?
Yes, it would be earth-shattering.
But his argument was the reverse. That science cannot disprove that everything was creatd just like we measure it by God. But even though we cannot disprove it, it is not very useful as a theory, as long as there is not any positive proof either.
I think that was his point.
WormHeart
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RE: Could've God done this? - 7/30/2010 10:48:37 AM
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Embedded
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
There are many reasonable explanations for the so-called "appearance of age" seen in the universe today.
Only if you ignore the facts that contradict those explanations.
A while back you posted a link to a paper by a physicist. IIRC, you said he was a friend or an acquaintance of yours. I read the paper and it discussed several scenarios for the apparent age of the universe mainly relying on the speed of light and redshifts. Not one of these scenarios discussed all the evidence we have... particularly methods that are independent and yet still agree that the universe is billions of years old. I asked you then if you could ask your friend how he can explain the evidence that contradicts his hypothesis. Did you ask him? What did he say?
quote:
How old did Adam and Eve "appear" on the seventh day when they were one day old? Probably 25 years old or so and if you do the math, you get the same order of magnitude greater difference for their apparent age as you get for the universe's apparent age today. Interesting...
OK, let's do the math...(and it is really very easy to do if you understand simple arithmetic)
1. Adam and Eve are one day old but appear to be 25 years old. 365 days in a year times 25 years.
365 X 25 = 9125 days
So 9125 days compared to one day is three orders of magnitude different. Since 9125 is close to 10000 lets be generous and say four orders or magnitude difference.
2. Creationists claim that the universe is about 6000 years old. Scientists claim the universe appears to be about 13 billion years old.
As before 6000 is three orders of magnitude while 13 billion is ten orders of magnitude. The difference between three and ten is seven.
To put it another way:
6000 = 6 X 10^3
13 billion = 1.3 X 10^10
The difference between the exponents is 10-3=7
3. drmark is claiming that somehow 7=4.
I am not sure how you find this interesting. I hope you are more careful with your arithmetic when it is about something a bit more important.
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RE: Could've God done this? - 7/30/2010 1:12:50 PM
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drmark
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Thank you for your corrections, Embedded. I generally allow my stockbroker to handle figures this large when it's about something a bit more important... 
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RE: Could've God done this? - 7/30/2010 1:39:12 PM
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tacitus
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So did Adam and Eve really look like they were 25 years old, or did they have the superficial appearance of being 25 years old, but when examined more closely, did the have all the same wear and tear that any 25 year old's body would have -- old bone chips and fractures, muscle tears, scars, sun damage, etc. etc.?
What we see through our telescopes is 13 billion years of history -- the birth, life, and deaths of uncounted trillions of stars, galactic collisions on a scale we can hardly comprehend that take millions of years to unfold. Adam and Eve, according to creationists, would have be in pristine condition, with no evidence of time and a life lived. The Universe is anything but pristine, and everywhere we look, the things we see present a detailed history of what's gone before.
And no, "the Fall" doesn't explain anything -- there still is not enough time for the cosmic interactions we see the results of to have taken place, not by any stretch of the imagination.
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RE: Could've God done this? - 7/30/2010 1:48:22 PM
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drmark
Posts: 5694
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quote:
So did Adam and Eve really look like they were 25 years old, or did they have the superficial appearance of being 25 years old, but when examined more closely, did the have all the same wear and tear that any 25 year old's body would have -- old bone chips and fractures, muscle tears, scars, sun damage, etc. etc.? How in the world could a mature human adult develop 25 years of "wear and tear" in 24 hours?
quote:
And no, "the Fall" doesn't explain anything Well tacitus, I'll take Paul's word over yours any day - Romans 8:20-22!
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RE: Could've God done this? - 7/30/2010 2:39:03 PM
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tacitus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
How in the world could a mature human adult develop 25 years of "wear and tear" in 24 hours?
Exactly. In other words, a careful examination of their bodies would reveal that they could not have lived 25 years of life, even if they superficially appeared to be 25 years old.
So if the Universe was only 6,000 years old, and was created perfectly and instantly, then you might expect there to be a similar lack of evidence of past events reaching back millions, billions of years. Yet we see that evidence everywhere we look. Colliding galaxies, streams of gas connecting galaxies that had near misses, supernova remnants, heavily cratered planets and moons, superheated jets of gas stretching tens of thousands of light years, on and on and on. None of this could have happened in 6,000 years -- not even 60,000 or 600,000.
quote:
Well tacitus, I'll take Paul's word over yours any day - Romans 8:20-22!
Oh, I didn't know Paul was well versed in the motions and interactions of galaxies millions of light years from Earth.
For example, how does the Fall explain the Magellanic Stream---a trail of gas 600,000 light years long caused by the gravitational interaction between the Milky Way and the Magellanic Clouds, satellite dwarf galaxies in close orbit around our own galaxy? The trail of gas reaches half-way round the Milky Way, and is clear evidence that the Magellanic Clouds has been orbiting the Milky Way for millions of years (probably billions).
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RE: Could've God done this? - 7/30/2010 2:56:19 PM
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drmark
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quote:
None of this could have happened in 6,000 years -- not even 60,000 or 600,000. According to your faith-based assumptions related to the religion of uniformitarian naturalism, that is your logical conclusion. According to my faith based assumptions of Biblical inerrancy and the effects of the Fall, my logical conclusion is different.
quote:
For example, how does the Fall explain the Magellanic Stream---a trail of gas 600,000 light years long caused by the gravitational interaction between the Milky Way and the Magellanic Clouds, satellite dwarf galaxies in close orbit around our own galaxy? The trail of gas reaches half-way round the Milky Way, and is clear evidence that the Magellanic Clouds has been orbiting the Milky Way for millions of years (probably billions). More uniformitarian naturalism, I see. Well tacitus, I must admit you are consistent in your error... 
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RE: Could've God done this? - 7/30/2010 3:28:53 PM
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drmark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Embedded
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Thank you for your corrections, Embedded.
You are welcome. Any time you are struggling with basic arithmetic... just ask.
quote:
I generally allow my stockbroker to handle figures this large when it's about something a bit more important...
This an interesting(!) admission. May I conclude therefore that you regard figures about your religion are less important than figures about your financial investments?
I would have thought that, for a medical professional and for the sake of their patients (and your finances), they would find figures on the order of 10^10 interesting AND important AND routine. Am I wrong to think that they are?
You make all sorts of incorrect conclusions all the time on the S&O threads. Please don't ask for my permission to continue.
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RE: Could've God done this? - 7/30/2010 5:42:15 PM
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DanM2010
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
For example, how does the Fall explain the Magellanic Stream---a trail of gas 600,000 light years long caused by the gravitational interaction between the Milky Way and the Magellanic Clouds, satellite dwarf galaxies in close orbit around our own galaxy? The trail of gas reaches half-way round the Milky Way, and is clear evidence that the Magellanic Clouds has been orbiting the Milky Way for millions of years (probably billions). More uniformitarian naturalism, I see. Well tacitus, I must admit you are consistent in your error...
Where is the error in Tacitus' descriptions of the astronomical events above?
Is it just that he started from the data rather than from Genesis?
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RE: Could've God done this? - 7/30/2010 10:50:28 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Where is the error in Tacitus' descriptions of the astronomical events above?
Is it just that he started from the data rather than from Genesis? For the last time (I wish...), those are NOT "descriptions of data"! They are conclusions derived from the faith-based assumptions of uniformitarian naturalism. Man's religious poppycock can't hold a candle to God's authoritative Word!
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RE: Could've God done this? - 7/31/2010 1:22:18 AM
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DanM2010
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Where is the error in Tacitus' descriptions of the astronomical events above?
Is it just that he started from the data rather than from Genesis? For the last time (I wish...), those are NOT "descriptions of data"! They are conclusions derived from the faith-based assumptions of uniformitarian naturalism. Man's religious poppycock can't hold a candle to God's authoritative Word!
I think I actually said "descriptions of astronomical events"......
Have you looked at the Magellanic Clouds.
Can you come up with a better answer for what happened than what astrophysicists have given us?
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RE: Could've God done this? - 7/31/2010 5:49:24 AM
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shakezula
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
How in the world could a mature human adult develop 25 years of "wear and tear" in 24 hours?
wow. i think dr mark has finally put up a white flag. that's one of the harshest criticisms of YEC i've seen here.
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RE: Could've God done this? - 7/31/2010 6:02:20 AM
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19ramman85
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So, what some of you are saying is ....... "In a blink of an eye - God created everything just as it is, as it is now?" That - "There is no way possible, thru rapid growth/expansion, etc. That it - "appears"[/l], to us humans as being older than what the universe/Earth really is?"
Hmmm, I dunno - not really buying that argument right now.
-charles
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RE: Could've God done this? - 7/31/2010 8:03:39 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Can you come up with a better answer for what happened than what astrophysicists have given us? God has already given us the best answer in Genesis 1:14-19!
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that's one of the harshest criticisms of YEC i've seen here. Well shake, you sure lost me. How does God having created a mature universe in 6 days about 6000 years ago without "wear and tear" go against YEC belief?
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That it - "appears"[/l], to us humans as being older than what the universe/Earth really is?" Would it help to say that the universe appears more mature to us than what we humans would expect for only 6000 years because we've lived in a fallen world for 99.9% of recorded history?
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RE: Could've God done this? - 7/31/2010 8:18:23 AM
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DanM2010
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Can you come up with a better answer for what happened than what astrophysicists have given us? God has already given us the best answer in Genesis 1:14-19!
You were asked a specific question about the Magellanic Clouds.
And tacitus had described exactly how the gas trail left by the Magellanic Clouds conflicted with Genesis.
Your answer, with respect, smacks of the opposite.
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RE: Could've God done this? - 7/31/2010 8:26:15 AM
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drmark
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quote:
You were asked a specific question about the Magellanic Clouds.
And tacitus had described exactly how the gas trail left by the Magellanic Clouds conflicted with Genesis.
Your answer, with respect, smacks of the opposite. I gave a specific answer - do I need to explain Genesis 1:14-19 to you? Tacitus "described" nothing but his personal conclusions from the observational evidence derived by using faith-based assumptions of uniformitarian naturalism. I reject those assumptions just as you reject mine. Your answer, "with respect", smacks of ignorance of faith-based assumptions!
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RE: Could've God done this? - 7/31/2010 9:50:56 PM
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shakezula
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Can you come up with a better answer for what happened than what astrophysicists have given us? God has already given us the best answer in Genesis 1:14-19!
an answer would be "here is are the verses, and here is how they apply to his question". you have to connect the 2 in your own words.
quote:
quote:
that's one of the harshest criticisms of YEC i've seen here. Well shake, you sure lost me. How does God having created a mature universe in 6 days about 6000 years ago without "wear and tear" go against YEC belief?
everything in Genesis is created from "birth" to its current state except for Adam and Eve. the earth, stars, plants, etc each take a day to go from nothing to their current forms. But if what you say about the universe is true, then for Adam the universe should have looked 6 days old. which would mean that it would be just a bunch of hot gas with no form. "deceptive time" (the 99% you speak of) would have to occur after the Fall, which would mean that the earth, heavens, etc would not exist until after the Fall, and then "accelerated time/ deceptive time" would take place, and the universe would hurry itself into its current forms.
this would mean that there would be two time scales: pre-Fall, when a day = 24 hrs, and post-Fall, where it would be impossible to measure a "day", because the scale of it would be unreliable. a post-Fall days could equal 24 seconds or 24 million years, and each day could be a different scale. if we cannot gauge the universe's age because the Fall undermines our perceptions, then time itself is elastic and unreliable.
that would throw out any argument for a 6,000 yr old earth, because the 6,000 yr old earth assumes that time is fixed and reliable both before and after the Fall.
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RE: Could've God done this? - 7/31/2010 10:16:36 PM
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DanM2010
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
You were asked a specific question about the Magellanic Clouds.
And tacitus had described exactly how the gas trail left by the Magellanic Clouds conflicted with Genesis.
Your answer, with respect, smacks of the opposite. I gave a specific answer - do I need to explain Genesis 1:14-19 to you?
You certainly do.
I can see nothing in Genesis 1:14-19, no matter which version I read, which goes anywhere near to explaining how gas trails stretching for many light years could have been made in a single day.
Maybe Moses should have written a "Torah for Dummies."
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RE: Could've God done this? - 7/31/2010 11:42:48 PM
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DanM2010
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I'm always just that little bit too late......
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