quote:

ORIGINAL: herestoresmysoul

Wasnt St Augustine the one who said that sex was evil and that it should only EVER happen for having children? If so he was 100% wrong about that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi

quote:

ORIGINAL: herestoresmysoul

Wasnt St Augustine the one who said that sex was evil and that it should only EVER happen for having children? If so he was 100% wrong about that.

Yes, which is just demonstration of why the church should not treat his writings as scripture.

quote:

ORIGINAL: wjm92

I would not dismiss St. Augustine out of hand. I have done this in the past, but if someone from so long ago has been revered for good reason by so many very intelligent people for so long, I'd listen very carefully.

This is a very important subject and not to be taken lightly. I have struggled with this issue as many, many others have. Seek the truth, be honest in your search, and above all, do not place your trust in man, but seek the Lord and His Holy Spirit in prayer and through His word. Prov "A way may seem right to a man, but it only leads to death." "Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." The first lesson in wisdom: Get it, seek it and whatever you do, look for it.

I think that most people do not do enough research (dig deep) enough to study the arguments and issues surrounding this subject. Since it is the basis of many of the rest of our lives, I would place more importance on this than your studies in college or school. Think of it as a future surgeon's class that will require knowledge, discernment, judgment and skill to save lives.

I recommend for your thoughtful consideration a resource that I've only just discovered (although there are others), that does a good job I think of presenting solid discussion on these questions: http://www.marriagedivorce.com/mdebook.pdf.

Questioning your faith can be a healthy thing in that you are really seeking understanding of God, not trying to debunk Him so that you can get what you want. Would you apply the same measure of 'beyond a reasonable doubt' to your marital life as you would on a jury where you would send someone to their death?

Look at other references from Genesis, Malachi, Hosea, Romans, 1 Cor, the gospels, etc. Isn't it God's blessing to find someone loving? Remember that God has called us to Holiness, not Happiness. Remember the passion and the life of Jesus as well - He is our model - ever faithful to His people, even to the point of dying at their hands for their sins - He never 'divorced' them either to marry another people or to put them to shame. God, is not a God of divorce (see Malachi - for I hate divorce). When the God of Love, who is Love, hates something, I'd pay attention.

BTW, consider that if the two are one flesh, how can one remarry and the other not? Are not both one flesh. "What God has joined" - so even the 'guilty' party cannot separate them. God is in the marriage - He has done no wrong - He alone is righteous and calls spouses back into communion with Him in their marriage.

"My people parish for lack of knowledge." - Hosea. Read the book of Hosea, who took a prostitute for a wife, to symbolize the prostitution that the Hebrews had done against God. How did God handle it? How did Hosea? What role did the priests have at that time in the prostitution?

What good is happiness without Truth? Jesus did not come to abolish the law or the prophets but to fulfill them. 'I am the way, the TRUTH, and the life' He said. Seek Him, and Him alone, for from Him alone, and through Christ alone, comes our salvation. You have been purchased with a heavy price - the blood and suffering of God's only Son.

May the Lord bless you and guide you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ticia

Okay...I lived for nine years with a guy who had been divorced because his ex-wife cheated on him according to him. He was very "spritual" unfortunatly he also forgot to mention that he was delusional. I lived in a marraige where I was accused of being literal witch, was physically abused, mentally abused and spritually abused....oh and he accused me of cheating on him while he was on the internet and any other medium viewing pornagraphy...I also had people informing me that they saw him meeting other women...but when confronted he had a plausible excuse. So I let it go...I finally left him...while I separated from him, I started another relationship...yes I know that what I did after I left was no better...and yes I am remarried to someone whose wife left him for another man. We have a child together. Trust is the biggest issue in our relationship. However, neither he nor I are living in the past with the adultery issue...because we believe that God forgives us reguardless. If he throws our sins into the sea of forgetfullness...who are we to hold onto those sins and treat them as weights in our current marraige.

For those of you who have never walked in my shoes...you really need to get some perspective. I had every reason to leave my ex. He has a serious mental problem that made him UNCAPABLE of making the promise to me. I was incapable of keeping a promise to him as well because his mental incapacities were withheld from me by himself (who will tell you to this day that everyone else in this world is crazy) and his family (who just wanted to find someone who would take him off their hands). I stayed with him for nine yeas and had two children with him. The children have seen their father at his worse and are staying with me full time now because he is in jail for hurting one of them.

So Biblically did I have a reason to leave him YES...my life and my children's lives were in danger. Could I get remarried? YES because I made a promise to someone who was in NO mental state to follow through on ANYTHING...Not to mention the fact that he was unfaithful to me throughout our whole marriage in thought and probably in deed as well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: gmcspice

Benelchi,

Can you please reprint what you feel is biblically correct on this subject. I know you posted it way back but we have new fresh faces in the thread. Maybe the scriptural perspective you have will do them so good just like it did me.

By the way, God bless you and Dave so much for giving the TRUTH according to God on this subject. Both of your teachings has set free me and many others from the bondage of divorce and given the hope of remarriage.

quote:

ORIGINAL: gmcspice

Mike, Genesis 3:16 is not the law of Husband. It isn't a law at all. Please stop twisting scripture. It was a punishment for women that was given because EVE disobeyed God. It is completely different to what Paul is talking about. He is addressing the laws given to Moses NOT punishments given because of the fall.
After Jesus died on the cross and was sacrificed for all sin, that punishment is null and void. We are given liberty and set free by Jesus' sacrifice. So, again, please stop trying to hang something over women's heads that is no longer valid.

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi

quote:

ORIGINAL: loveydoveysmom

quote:


Are you confused yet?

benelchi, I know you commented this to another poster but YES I am confused. If the Lord's word is not complicated like so many people say then why would the Lord make this so complicated?

There really must be a simplified way of looking at all this for those of us that are maybe well.... more simplied ourselves.

That's why some of us who have posted questions are wanting answers or clarification regardless of all the bible flipping gymnastics being thrown around.

I do understand, and while I think that this issue is fairly clear in Scripture, there are a few gray areas for which we are going to have grace for those who disagree, and really understanding the issue (like every other issue in the bible does take hard work and study). Like I said before, much of that hard work has already been done when the biblical scholars who translated our English bibles looked at the history, culture, and language and produced an English translation that reflect well the message that the original biblical text conveyed. So much of the real hard work has already been done by those who have gone before us.

Here are some of my views on the topic of Divorce and Remarriage.

1) Divorce is clearly permitted in some circumstances i.e. Adultery and abandonment by an unbelieving spouse (Mt. 5:31-32, Mt. 19:3-12, 1 Cor 7:13-16). However, every instance of sexual infidelity doesn't provide a reason for divorce. (Hos. 1-3, Eph. 5:23-33). Divorce in the case of adultery should be the last possible option and not the first response; it is something that should be done while we are still committed to loving our spouse.

2) There are times where separation rather than divorce is required, even for extended periods of time. (1 Cor. 7:10-11)

3) An remarriage after a divorce always breaks the original covenant regardless of whether the new marriage was entered into by the guilty or innocent party (Duet. 24:1-4).

4) Any marriage begins a new and valid covenant regardless of whether the marriage was begun out of sin i.e. adultery or not, and it is just as sinful to break the covenant of a second marriage as it is the covenant of a first marriage. Duet. 24:1-4, Jn 4, Mt. 5:31-32, Mt. 19:3-12, 1 Cor. 7, Eph 5, Hos. 1-3)

5) God can forgive those who repent of choosing an unbiblical divorce, have been involved in adultery, etc.... if the come to him in repentance. However, choosing to sin, while planning to repent later is an extremely dangerous position (Ro. 6). Repentance, NEVER requires an additional divorce because another divorce would also be sinful.


Some of the gray areas:

1) Does a husband have any greater responsibility to reconcile a marriage than does a wife because of his role in the marriage.

2) Is a subsequent remarriage permissible for those who have divorced because of abuse, or are they to remain separated. Scripture never really deals with particular this situation clearly, and so we must answer this by looking at other principles given in Scripture. I do believe that separation is required whenever an abusive spouse present any danger at all to his family.

3) What about divorces that were initiated by a believing spouse, do they require the spouse who has been abandoned to remain separated or reconcile, or does the remaining spouse have the freedom to remarry?


In these gray areas, I tend to lean towards remaining separated and have personally found that this is often not near the burden in real life that people assume it will be when debating the issue. In real life, those who choose to sin in such a way that requires their spouse to separate will rarely be content to just remain separated; they will either decided to put in the hard work required to reconcile the marriage, or they will pursue a new relationship which will provide the biblical grounds required for divorce. Additionally, rushing into a new relationship is one of the biggest mistakes a person can make after a marriage has been torn apart and the time required to wait can often be a huge blessing in disguise.

quote:

ORIGINAL: gmcspice

Mike,
Genesis 3:16 IS NOT A LAW!!!!!!!!
It is a curse! A punishment!
The punishment was broken when Christ sacrificed himself on the cross.
Stop telling women they have to be in bondage because of Genesis 3:16 because that is complete lie!

quote:


Dont worry gmc spice, most of us know we are not in bondage. Jesus has set us free.

quote:

ORIGINAL: gmcspice

quote:


Dont worry gmc spice, most of us know we are not in bondage. Jesus has set us free.

I know. I just burns me up sometimes to see misrepresentation of scripture like this. That is why I block him sometimes. I get angry and have to breath and take a break from Mike.

quote:

(huck) Love faileth not ... Jesus said, "I give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish; when we become one with Him. As stated, our personal salvation is our marriage to Christ ... a Permanent Salvation ... as His doctrine of Permanent-Marriage. That certainly is Love

(gmcspice: OH I get now.

You believe in OSAS, that sure explains a lot.
I will only say this. Jesus says "HE THAT ENDURES TO THE END WILL BE SAVED."
We are NOT married yet to Christ because he has not come back for us yet. We are betrothed to Christ. See the story of the 10 virgins?
5 wise 5 foolish? There will be some that will be wise and have their lamps full go out to meet the Husband which is Christ and will be married(caught up) forever. The 5 foolish are the ones that weren't ready. These represent those who have not endured to the end and/or were not prepared BUT claim they are. Sounds like some people I know- the OSAS crowd. They think because they claim Jesus, they are his bride. We will see when the day of marriage comes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sallyannester

The Good News bible says Bride
Rev 19:7 Let us rejoice and be glad; let us praise his greatness! For the time has come for the wedding of the Lamb, and his bride has prepared herself for it.

Rev 19:7 The marriage of the Lamb is come - Is near at hand, to be solemnized speedily. What this implies, none of "the spirits of just men," even in paradise, yet know. O what things are those which are yet behind! And what purity of heart should there be, to meditate upon them! And his wife hath made herself ready - Even upon earth; but in a far higher sense, in that world. After a time allowed for this, the new Jerusalem comes down, both made ready and adorned, Rev_21:2.
John Wesley's Explanatory notes

quote:

ORIGINAL: huckfinn327

quote:

ORIGINAL: sallyannester

The Good News bible says Bride
Rev 19:7 Let us rejoice and be glad; let us praise his greatness! For the time has come for the wedding of the Lamb, and his bride has prepared herself for it.

Rev 19:7 The marriage of the Lamb is come - Is near at hand, to be solemnized speedily. What this implies, none of "the spirits of just men," even in paradise, yet know. O what things are those which are yet behind! And what purity of heart should there be, to meditate upon them! And his wife hath made herself ready - Even upon earth; but in a far higher sense, in that world. After a time allowed for this, the new Jerusalem comes down, both made ready and adorned, Rev_21:2.
John Wesley's Explanatory notes

The GNB translation cannot be justified ... the Greek has a special word for Bride ... the word "Wife" here is justified and correct ... as follows:


Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 1:19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.
Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mat 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Mat 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

1. The consummation of the Legal Contract. Usually consummated by the parents when the parties were at a premarital age. This was a contract that was consummated with a suitable dowery; the idea of money surfaces here. Therefore with the acceptance of the payment of dowery the Marriage was completely legally consummated, and the parties were Legally Married.

The Bride of Christ, each member of His Church, is Legally Married to Christ at the moment of their Redemption with His precious blood. 1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. Therefore, "today" , every true Christian is joined to Christ in a Legal Marriage.

huckfinn

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi

quote:

ORIGINAL: huckfinn327

quote:

ORIGINAL: sallyannester

The Good News bible says Bride
Rev 19:7 Let us rejoice and be glad; let us praise his greatness! For the time has come for the wedding of the Lamb, and his bride has prepared herself for it.

Rev 19:7 The marriage of the Lamb is come - Is near at hand, to be solemnized speedily. What this implies, none of "the spirits of just men," even in paradise, yet know. O what things are those which are yet behind! And what purity of heart should there be, to meditate upon them! And his wife hath made herself ready - Even upon earth; but in a far higher sense, in that world. After a time allowed for this, the new Jerusalem comes down, both made ready and adorned, Rev_21:2.
John Wesley's Explanatory notes

The GNB translation cannot be justified ... the Greek has a special word for Bride ... the word "Wife" here is justified and correct ... as follows:


Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 1:19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.
Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mat 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Mat 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

1. The consummation of the Legal Contract. Usually consummated by the parents when the parties were at a premarital age. This was a contract that was consummated with a suitable dowery; the idea of money surfaces here. Therefore with the acceptance of the payment of dowery the Marriage was completely legally consummated, and the parties were Legally Married.

The Bride of Christ, each member of His Church, is Legally Married to Christ at the moment of their Redemption with His precious blood. 1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. Therefore, "today" , every true Christian is joined to Christ in a Legal Marriage.

huckfinn

Actually, this is incorrect. Jewish law required the man to provide only a small some of money (or even just a letter of intent) in order to betroth a woman; this was NOT the dowry. The dowry in some cases was provided by the brides father, and it stayed with the woman until she entered the home of her husband (i.e. after she is married).

Ref: Sketches of Jewish Social Life, Alfred Edersheim.

quote:

ORIGINAL: huckfinn327

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi

quote:

ORIGINAL: huckfinn327

quote:

ORIGINAL: sallyannester

The Good News bible says Bride
Rev 19:7 Let us rejoice and be glad; let us praise his greatness! For the time has come for the wedding of the Lamb, and his bride has prepared herself for it.

Rev 19:7 The marriage of the Lamb is come - Is near at hand, to be solemnized speedily. What this implies, none of "the spirits of just men," even in paradise, yet know. O what things are those which are yet behind! And what purity of heart should there be, to meditate upon them! And his wife hath made herself ready - Even upon earth; but in a far higher sense, in that world. After a time allowed for this, the new Jerusalem comes down, both made ready and adorned, Rev_21:2.
John Wesley's Explanatory notes

The GNB translation cannot be justified ... the Greek has a special word for Bride ... the word "Wife" here is justified and correct ... as follows:


Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 1:19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.
Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mat 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Mat 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

1. The consummation of the Legal Contract. Usually consummated by the parents when the parties were at a premarital age. This was a contract that was consummated with a suitable dowery; the idea of money surfaces here. Therefore with the acceptance of the payment of dowery the Marriage was completely legally consummated, and the parties were Legally Married.

The Bride of Christ, each member of His Church, is Legally Married to Christ at the moment of their Redemption with His precious blood. 1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. Therefore, "today" , every true Christian is joined to Christ in a Legal Marriage.

huckfinn

Actually, this is incorrect. Jewish law required the man to provide only a small some of money (or even just a letter of intent) in order to betroth a woman; this was NOT the dowry. The dowry in some cases was provided by the brides father, and it stayed with the woman until she entered the home of her husband (i.e. after she is married).

Ref: Sketches of Jewish Social Life, Alfred Edersheim.

I don't understand you. You "admit" that money was involved and then you say my post is "incorrect" ... as if it has no merit at all. ??? By the way my post was taken out of John Walvoord's commentary on Revelation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi

quote:

ORIGINAL: huckfinn327

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi

quote:

ORIGINAL: huckfinn327

quote:

ORIGINAL: sallyannester

The Good News bible says Bride
Rev 19:7 Let us rejoice and be glad; let us praise his greatness! For the time has come for the wedding of the Lamb, and his bride has prepared herself for it.

Rev 19:7 The marriage of the Lamb is come - Is near at hand, to be solemnized speedily. What this implies, none of "the spirits of just men," even in paradise, yet know. O what things are those which are yet behind! And what purity of heart should there be, to meditate upon them! And his wife hath made herself ready - Even upon earth; but in a far higher sense, in that world. After a time allowed for this, the new Jerusalem comes down, both made ready and adorned, Rev_21:2.
John Wesley's Explanatory notes

The GNB translation cannot be justified ... the Greek has a special word for Bride ... the word "Wife" here is justified and correct ... as follows:


Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 1:19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.
Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mat 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Mat 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

1. The consummation of the Legal Contract. Usually consummated by the parents when the parties were at a premarital age. This was a contract that was consummated with a suitable dowery; the idea of money surfaces here. Therefore with the acceptance of the payment of dowery the Marriage was completely legally consummated, and the parties were Legally Married.

The Bride of Christ, each member of His Church, is Legally Married to Christ at the moment of their Redemption with His precious blood. 1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. Therefore, "today" , every true Christian is joined to Christ in a Legal Marriage.

huckfinn

Actually, this is incorrect. Jewish law required the man to provide only a small some of money (or even just a letter of intent) in order to betroth a woman; this was NOT the dowry. The dowry in some cases was provided by the brides father, and it stayed with the woman until she entered the home of her husband (i.e. after she is married).

Ref: Sketches of Jewish Social Life, Alfred Edersheim.

I don't understand you. You "admit" that money was involved and then you say my post is "incorrect" ... as if it has no merit at all. ??? By the way my post was taken out of John Walvoord's commentary on Revelation.

A small amount of money (a fraction of the dowery) or a letter of intent was involved; these are NOT the dowry. So, no I did not admit what you infered.

quote:

ORIGINAL: herestoresmysoul

quote:

ORIGINAL: gmcspice

Mike,
Genesis 3:16 IS NOT A LAW!!!!!!!!
It is a curse! A punishment!
The punishment was broken when Christ sacrificed himself on the cross.
Stop telling women they have to be in bondage because of Genesis 3:16 because that is complete lie!

Dont worry gmc spice, most of us know we are not in bondage. Jesus has set us free.

quote:

Hay guys..we get the teaching of the man as the "head" in the marriage Eph 5:23-31 and the woman to obey her husband from Gen 3:16. Test all things through Scripture to see if the things are so

quote:

Huck,

We will not be officially married to Christ until he returns.
If we are already married to him, then why does he say He goes to prepare a place for us and he will RETURN for his Bride?
Bride implies we are not yet a wife.
Prime example of what a woman is called BEFORE she is married officially.


And the story of the 5 wise BRIDES and 5 foolish BRIDES who go to wait on the groom to come.
The Church is the BRIDE waiting for the GROOM- Christ- to return and MARRY her.